Why it Matters

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HughI think you have to advocate for your client if your client's rights are being trampled on in some cases, and I know that sounds hyperbolic, but that's what was happening. , There was nothing else to do, but speak out about it,

Christiney'all. You can't believe how bad it actually is in some instances. Like truly cannot believe it unless you see it.

ChristineAll right. Welcome to the Judgmental podcast. Today we are gonna celebrate our first podcast drop Today we are getting amazing feedback. We also have a message for the attorneys. We've got a message for the public. We've got a call to action for y'all. We're also gonna talk about the issues that we experienced in court, and most importantly, we're gonna address. Some of the questions that you've submitted to my Facebook, TikTok, Instagram. Ask us questions. [00:01:00] Ask us questions. Ask us questions. Hugh, how you feeling today?

HughAwesome. I think yeah, a little bit tired. Yeah. Late night of work to get stuff over to the finish line. I think it'll be easier next time we running into some. Some, platform gatekeeping. 'cause we submitted before we got verified on there and yeah, all the growing pains, so that's fine. Yes. I mean, having

Christinea podcast was literally a dream of mine. Like I'm, this is so fun. I know it's a heavy topic. But this is really fun and I do think we're gonna make a huge difference.

HughWell, good. I mean, that's. I wouldn't be doing it if I didn't feel that we were.

ChristineAnd I kind of wanna start with a message to attorneys and I wanna talk about, I've got nothing but positive feedback from lawyers. And I want attorneys to realize, 'cause I do know, and we've talked about this before, that there is this fear and speaking out against them. Because against whom? Against the judges. Because they'll retaliate against you. But I want you to think about it like this, and I am guilty of not fighting [00:02:00] the system and bucking the system as much as I should have while I was practicing. I, I mean, 100%. A lot of guilt. That being said, I think when clients come to you, you have to be an advocate for your client. The pendulum is swinging and clients don't wanna hire lawyers that are scared of judges. What do you think?

HughI agree. I think that's feedback I got for a long time mm-hmm. Was that I would fight the judge back and I would be told thank you afterwards because, you know, if, if my client was just getting run over the, I, I remember how uncomfortable it was early in my career where I just thought, I, is it my place to say something here? Mm-hmm. I think that was completely inappropriate, but I , I wouldn't speak out and I just, I, it was hard to sleep. Yeah, I would, I would just be so upset about it. And when I finally just started pushing back a little bit, when I would see something incorrect, I never, ever received, I don't believe a single time where a client said, oh, [00:03:00] maybe we should have calmed down, or maybe we shouldn't have done that 100. And, and I will say to the attorneys out there , that are afraid of doing it. Could it affect other cases you have in front of that judge? Absolutely. I experienced it. But my point of view was always that I was an advocate for that client and that case in that courtroom, and I could not be thinking about my business. I could not be thinking about the other cases. Now I was fortunate enough to be part of a team, and if I. Spoke out or did something that would put me at odds with the judge. I had other attorneys that could handle other matters that were in front of that same judge so that I, you know, I got to think about that as well. So you had the opportunity

Christinereally kind of to think about it, like for a cooling off period, which I didn't have as a solo practitioner. Yeah.

HughNo, no, no. I agree. But I, I think you have to advocate for your client if your client's rights are not being, or they're, they're being trampled on in some cases, and I know that sounds hyperbolic, but that's what was happening. , There was nothing else to do, but speak out about it, [00:04:00]

Christiney'all. You can't believe how bad it actually is in some instances. Like truly cannot believe it unless you see it. Which I think is to segue to the point of why we're doing judgy. 'cause I will tell you, like even I left about two years ago and , obviously super supportive family, super supportive friends, all of the, the, a great network. But I was speaking to my mother after I posted the baby case where the judge, without due process, made the dad who'd been the sole provider for this baby hand the baby over in open court without a hearing. And the court of appeals said this was a gross miscarriage of justice. Like I remember my mom called me and was like, holy shit, like that actually happens. Okay? And I was like, I've been telling you for two years how bad it is. And she's like, . We believe you. But it's just different until you see it with your own eyes.

HughIt's heartbreaking when you see it. And I, hell, I was about, I still am one of the most jaded people. You know, I think people from outside of my legal world [00:05:00] are a little bit afraid of how jaded I am and how, , sort of numb I am to certain things. I was shocked at how shaken I was a couple times where I would see a judge get angry and just take someone's child away. Right then and there and tell the other side, you're gonna go pick the child up right now, they're not gonna live with you anymore. And just like, do these things. Without thinking about what the, the real world consequences for the parties or for the kid?

ChristineYeah, or the kid. Like the kid.

HughI'm talking about a 2-year-old. One time I saw it happen, it immediately afterwards. And, , I tried to negotiate for some time so there could be a conversation about, oh, you're not gonna live with us anymore. Even though the child had lived with my clients from the time she was born I guess she came from home from the hospital to my clients and the judge just decided to change things. He was upset, wanted to move things forward, wanted to finalize the case, and said, oh, you know, the biological mom had finally done everything that she needed to do. So [00:06:00] the child just. I'm gonna go home right after this hearing. The child was living out of town. My clients had driven in from out of town. So had the child ever had an overnight straight? I don't know if we had started overnights. There may have been a few, but Minimal overnights. But minimal. Oh, it was minimal. The, the regular visitation only started a, a couple months before, 'cause it'd been years with, with nothing. So this was like almost. An unknown person. Yeah. This is somebody that the child was still getting to know that then all of a sudden you're going to live with this person immediately with no visitation to the person that raised the child because they're not a party. So I can't order a visitation. Just you're cut off. Thanks for, you know, except for there was never any thank you to the people that had raised the child. Just, okay, we're done. Now Child's going back right now. No transition period. Not even time for a conversation about it.

ChristineAnd, and we're not psychologists obviously, . I mean, we're human beings and we have Google and there's no way, in my opinion, a. That that can't have caused significant trauma attachment [00:07:00] issues for that child that that child will suffer with for the rest of that child's life. Like, I'm not even being dramatic, like that child has been set up by this judge to be more likely to suffer from substance abuse, eating disorders, abusive relationships all of those things. I mean, I know that probably upsets you 'cause you know these people, but that's the reality in my opinion. Oh no.

HughListen, they, they know and have done their research. They were very intelligent clients and it made it much harder because they knew mm-hmm. The

Hughdamage that it was going to do. They understood all of those things to the extent that you can. Yeah.

HughYou know, but they, yeah, and they knew, and, and to this day, that's still the custodial situation of that case. And they were denied, , being a party. Now, you know, that, that was reversed by the Court of appeals in that case. And, . Now they are a party, but you know, they're making up for years and may be fighting for a child that doesn't remember a whole lot about. Living with them and that they were, or learn to disassociate at an early

Christineage was just like, okay, there is no stability for [00:08:00] me. Like I don't have a safe place because someone wearing a black robe doesn't understand a basic dignity humanity or respect.

HughI would, I would really like to have, , conversations with a psychologist here on the podcast to talk about. You know, what types of issues that can cause for children when that is done, because it happens so often and I, when that happened, Hmm, I, I couldn't believe that that was a regular part of what was going on. But because I fought in that case and I filed appeals and I filed Ritz. I had people start reaching out to me, other attorneys saying, I've got this nasty case. I don't, I've never dealt with anything like this. Maybe you could help or maybe you could help these people. And I started talking to people almost on a weekly basis that something like that had happened. And that was just in one county. Yeah. And I realized that people from other counties started reaching out to me. Then I started hearing from people in other states mm-hmm. That were reaching [00:09:00] out to me about similar issues that they had had, and it was just. I don't know how they had found out. You know, about my case. I know that I, my clients had been pretty activist in working, trying to change legislation to have rights for people that were either foster parents or not foster parent, third party caregivers and things like that. , But I was just amazed to find out that this was happening. All over the place, probably all over the country. I knew that it was happening all over the state.

ChristineA hundred percent. And that goes back, we talked about this on a previous podcast. I wanna touch on it a little bit. 'cause I'm in the same boat. I get so many questions like, how did you not know? How did you not know? How did you not know? And I did know it was bad, but I didn't know it was this bad because for the most part, most of my practice was resolved in mediation and it certainly wasn't on the docket that you're talking about this dependency, neglect and abuse. Sure. And you know, in hindsight. I realize if they were doing this shit to my clients that were paying me great money, I mean,

Hugh[00:10:00] imagine what they're doing to people that don't have attorneys representing them every

Christineday.

HughYeah. , And just for those listening in these cases, the parents whose children are removed from have a right to counsel, the child has a right to counsel. So they're provided with attorneys, the third party caregivers who the children. What would be like an our placed with? Yeah,

Christinebut what would be an example of like third party? When you say that, you mean like foster parents, grandparents, and, well, so foster

Hughparents don't get custody. Mm-hmm. Foster parents have a child. Have the child, but custody still remains with the cabinet. The cabinet has ultimate control with third party caretakers, either family members, fictive, kin, someone like that. They actually have custody of the child and

Christineon a temporary basis. On a

Hughtemporary basis, so it can be snatched away from them. A moment's notice, which is often exactly what happens and they have no right to counsel whatsoever. So I learned about this because it was happening to clients with me fighting tooth and nail representing them. And I just [00:11:00] couldn't imagine until people started reaching out to me what was happening to people that didn't have attorneys.

ChristineAnd you were a machine, I mean, your firm, y'all were in six states, right?

Hugh5,

Christine5, 6 offices.

HughYeah.

ChristineI mean, this was a major machine too. This wasn't even like a solo practitioner scenario. No. We had, we

Hughhad a lot of attorneys and we all experienced, you know, similar things. Actually some of the attorneys, some of my partners that I worked with were in states where they were appalled by that. And, and truth be told, they hadn't seen that types of thing happen. But also, as you said, most of our work especially, , attorneys at. Mid-size firms or even small attorneys that have been in practice for a long time, they don't do a lot of dependency, neglect, and abuse cases. I

Christinedidn't like, literally, like I said before, maybe

Hughyeah,

Christine10, 15 cases. A

Hughlot of times you're dealing with people that can't afford a private attorney or, you know, I, I did some early on and, and actually enjoyed them because of what was at stake and that you got to be in court an awful lot. So, earlier in my career, I did it. Unfortunately, I, I ended up with clients most of the [00:12:00] time who just wouldn't clean up and they wouldn't follow the orders. And it was just a foregone conclusion that mm-hmm. Permanent custody was gonna be granted to someone else eventually, because I'm dealing with someone with substance abuse issues and they won't take advantage of the help. , And, you know, I was. I was getting them every chance possible, but it kind of got me a little disillusioned with the process until I had clients who hired me on circuit court, things like adoptions. I did a lot of adoption practice and I did a lot of, complex, messy, contested adoptions, multi-state adoptions, things like that. And they started reaching out to me and there would be a dependency, neglect, and abuse component because there would have to be a termination from the natural parent before the adoption could be done. And I started getting involved in those cases for people that could afford my services and started seeing just how irregularly the proceed proceeding were. How massive of the problem was. Yeah, I mean it, yeah. Absolutely shocking.

ChristineAnd so you said like 47 legal words in a matter of Yeah. 32 words. No, I didn't do that. Yeah. But, so we talked about temporary custody, permanent custody, then circuit court [00:13:00] actions and we're really not given legal advice. But there was a court of appeals opinion that came down I think last year, but on this dependency neglection abuse docket, which is essentially a district court docket. Permanent custody doesn't really mean permanent in the way listeners are. So people will think they have this piece of paper like, oh yay, I got permanent custody. And then you get a lawyer, you go file, file a circuit action. And that permanent custody means little to not

HughWell, and you know, this is very limited in scope to Kentucky as well.

ChristineYeah.

HughSo, and that, that is a term that you don't even hear use much in Kentucky, use it usually just here in independency cases. Mm-hmm. And again. Not getting into legal too much. Legal analysis is certainly not legal advice, but yeah, permanent custody in general is until a child becomes an adult, is something that is always fluid and there's very little you can do to, you know. There are circumstances where you can imagine that a, a parent could never regain custodial rights, but it's very rare. I mean, very rare. There's [00:14:00] always something that can change.

ChristineOne of the biggest annoyances I think people have with lawyers is the answer to any question anyone ask ever is It depends. It depends. Yeah. It's definitely true. And it does, it depends, and I think this is what's so important. Well, one, the laws are written terribly. The legislature needs to do some work to clean up some of this mess. And I got a couple comments like, well, the public doesn't care about what judges do. We all know that the public doesn't care. They're gonna vote. For the blondness of the blonde, blonde on the street corner with the yard sign. You know what I'm saying?

HughI or the family name they recognize.

ChristineYes. But I think I really do, and I know I'm gonna say this, , this is the second time I've used this verbiage. The pendulum has. Swung the other way. Legislatures, people, the public. If you care about this issue, you need to follow share like this podcast. Also message your local legislature. There are massive movements in Arizona and Idaho right now where they're doing task force to analyze what's happening in family court and it's making global [00:15:00] news.

HughI cannot wait to see because I mean, it's, it is sort of the question I have in my mind. People are certainly reaching out to us at numbers that I did not expect even, , being very optimistic when we started this. But , I'm really curious to find out in the next election cycle whether reality and conduct. Plays a role or if it's just simply who shows up at more community events and who has more yard signs? I'm,

Christinehere's what I think we could do. I really do, and we, it would. Require the local bar to get unified. But so we've got the family bar, right? 10 judges. We get a hundred attorneys to put their name in a hat. We draw them all like, and we'll draw 10 for division one. They all put their name in for Division one, 10 for division two. So then you'll have 11 people running. It will be a absolute shit show. Some incumbents will get kicked out and , they will realize there are more of us than there are y'all.[00:16:00] I, I've proposed this before it would work.

HughYou're telling me you can find 10 people you think would be no good for the bench?

ChristineFor

Hugheach division,

ChristineI can find a hundred people that would be better for the bench than the 10 we got now.

HughOkay. And I've said it and I'll say it again. It's a different statement. , My, my thing I always thought that, you know, it's one, one place to, I can point out errors, I can point out inconsistencies. It's very different in clearly recognizing there's a problem. And then there's another thing about going in and doing it better. And I think that by the time you get to the point where you understand what the problem is as an attorney, you're not gonna go and be a judge or. You know, the , same thing I thought with mediation. I've always been impressed with the attorneys that I practiced against who could also be good mediators. Mm-hmm. Because switching between the advocacy mode that I spent 20 years developing, switching to a neutral position I couldn't do it. I don't believe that [00:17:00] while I was. Doing the litigation, I could do that. I think I would have to, it would be a big shift. Now, I guess if you're not, you're as a judge, you're not litigating at the same time, so I guess you can make that switch. But I think it would be quite the process. I think I would need some definite time off after my, the litigation part of my career before I jumped into that.

ChristineWell, I, I, I don't disagree. And that goes to show we got a lot of retired judges that are out there mediating. Mm-hmm. And I think that's a real problem. Also, one of the real problems, you say a hundred, , attorneys, now I'm saying attorneys that practice family law, would they be better than the ones we have? And I do think they would. And here's why. Let's look at the current bench that we have now. How many of the current 10 judges on the bench have ever represented a client in their life?

HughI don't know the answer to that.

ChristineIf you are a prosecutor, you ain't never had a client. Hi Christine Ward. What have you been doing? She's never had a client, [00:18:00] or if she did, it was extraordinarily limited. I mean, how many people have you represented? Thousands.

HughOh, well over.

ChristineOh yeah. I mean, my public defender rate is probably 10,000. I mean, I can't even, like I practiced in 50 counties, maybe more, but until you actually, how the fuck, sorry. How can you get up on the bench, sit there and make decisions about people's lives, and you have no idea of what it's like to actually be able to tell a client, Hey, this is what the law is. Hey, this is my advice. Have you ever thought about it like that?

HughYeah, I have, but , only in the, only to the extent that. A judge is frustrated with me because my client wants to go forward on something that Right. You know? But, but I think that's different. I mean, I, I, those times I get frustrated because I think I do you, you really have never been in my shoes, and they're not understanding that I can't gimme more facts, can't tell my client. So anyway, let's say you, we've all had clients that they have something they wanna fight over. Mm-hmm. It's not frivolous or we wouldn't be bringing it [00:19:00] before the court. It isn't worth the money that they are going to pay to fight over it. It's gonna take up court time from things that really are much more important, but it's just a matter of principle. So that happens a lot. It's frustrating. It certainly is frustrating to the attorneys. Mm-hmm. It's very frustrating to the courts. But when the judge would, a judge would get frustrated with me because my client insists on going forward with something. And I could tell that they've never had to have the client control part of their, you know, in their career and understand how that works and understand that we don't get to tell our clients what to do. We advise them. Mm-hmm. And if they choose to go forward with something, we have to advise them as whether that's wise or best use of their time or money. But as long as it's not frivolous. Our job is to go in and hear that. That's where it really frustrated me. Yep. That when someone has never represented clients and doesn't understand, and they're getting very, you know, they're getting upset with me and acting like I'm wasting their time. Mm-hmm. Um, [00:20:00] otherwise though that, that aspect of it didn't bother me all that much. I think it's nuts. I, yeah. I don't know my, I in my career. I didn't know any judge that I practiced in front of personally very well. There are some that are on the bench now that I knew socially before but I didn't know them very well, so I when interpreting how a judge was in, in the courtroom or how they were in any given situation. I made sure I didn't make assumptions about whether that judge had ever been through something or could empathize because we haven't, , there's no way in the world I could sit there on the bench and empathize with every situation that came in. Like, yeah, I, you know, number one is a male. There's a, there's an entire category of things that I can't empathize with when it comes to parenthood, motherhood, those kinds of things. There are tons of life experience that I have not had to suffer through. I've been very blessed and fortunate in my life, so. I tried not to [00:21:00] think about whether or not this judge even understands what that's like, because you never know. You don't know what people have been through. So I didn't think about it that way. When I was before the court, I did think about the client control. And have you ever advocated, have you ever had one of these arguments with a client because you would know that I can't control this.

ChristineWell, also they would know that too. You would never wanna put an attorney in a situation where they had to sit there and argue with you and then go outside and get screamed at by their client. You know, you just wouldn't. That's not conducive for resolving cases. That's not conducive for families first. That's not conducive for best interest of the child. It's conducive for you put on a black robe, you think that you're God's gift to man, and you have judge itis. I mean, I am cranky today. I am not gonna lie because of some of the things. , Okay, listen, y'all know I'm on social media. I started this on TikTok. Hugh literally will not even accept my LinkedIn friend request. Okay. That is his involvement in social media.

HughYeah. I, it's certainly not intentional. I I did accept the, , the [00:22:00] Facebook request to control the judgy property on the day that it, it was going to expire. No, I did say that. I'm catching up. No, I hate I won't say I hate social media. I hate being involved. I just. I don't know the personal involvement in my personal life, it's not for me as a business. Yeah, perfectly fine.

ChristineWell, that's what makes us like a good duo. But I, the reason I get so frustrated is because like, I'll be like, oh my goodness. Like I saw something positive and then this morning I'll have. 47 messages. That's like, you're not gonna believe this. You're not gonna believe this. Yeah. Or there was actually a terrible case out of I can't even think of where it's out of, but Elizabeth Weinstein, she was a major in the movement talking about the problems in family court. And she passed away due to, suspicious circumstances at 53. And there's actually an epidemic of, , mothers committing suicide, which you may not know. You haven't been in the world long enough to know that's going on. . But you just, it is so frustrating to think that these people that have all of this control don't even have the basic common sense to [00:23:00] understand that exacerbating any situation doesn't make it better.

HughYeah. I, you know, there was a judge I practiced in front of proudly 15, 16 years ago, and he would call me up to the bench. At the end of a hearing sometimes and acting like he was angry, Mr. Barrow, I need to see you at the bench right now. Mm-hmm. And I would get up there and he would ask me about something completely unrelated to the case and just be joking around. I'd be like, oh, your client's gonna think you're in trouble. And like it, to his extent, it was just, you know, I would just like, ah ha, ha ha. That's funny. I appreciate a prank as well as anyone else. You've just now made my client think, right, that I've done something wrong. You're under, you're undermining me, but you're undermining the client's understanding and faith in the court system because if, just assuming the hearing that we just walked out of was perfunctory, or it was just executed perfectly, it wasn't Yeah. You know, that we [00:24:00] walked through and did everything that I said was correct, and then you're gonna call me up there in an angry way. Just to sort of mess with me because you're ribbing me a little bit and you know, to a certain extent, you know, like that's just kind of what colleagues do to each other. Is it to be funny? But outside of the courtroom right? Like, this same person played a hilarious prank that I won't say at a, at a friend's, at a friend's wedding. And I just thought it was, he, he, the guy was hilarious. Personally, but doing it in court, right, it caused problems with my clients and it's just like. These people, you know, the attorneys can walk away from it and, and leave the courtroom and you know it. It's one of those things that everyone always finds funny or strange that attorneys could fight. Mm-hmm. Like they hate each other in court and just fight so hard and then go get a drink. Just immediately walk outta court and be like, Hey, good job in there. Mm-hmm. You wanna go grab a beer or whatever, and we can talk about maybe, you know, the next, the things that we can do to move this forward or whatever, and they can just put it aside. Same thing with [00:25:00] judges. Judges and attorneys that know each other. You know, they do the same thing, but. There's just a time and a place. There's a time and a place. , The clients, once they, anything happens in a courtroom where they don't think the process is working correctly the way that it should. It affects everything else in the case.

ChristineWell, imagine if you're at the doctor and you're just talking to like a nurse practitioner, you're talking to the doctor, and then you got another doctor that opens the door and is like, I need to see you right this second. I mean, you would be in the doctor's office, like, is something wrong with me?

HughAnd they're like, oh, you, you have a a $3 99 cent bill. That's outstanding. Can you maybe pay that?

ChristineYeah. Or maybe it's just like, which is just like, why

Hughdidn't you call me that way? Yeah.

ChristineOr it's like maybe the. The, the head doctor was just like, ha ha ha. I just wanted to play a trick on you while you were sitting there caring for a patient. It's like you're a jackass. Like there's just,

Hughyeah. I, I appreciate a good jackass. I'm, I definitely, I am a jackass, not immune to being a jackass, but it would just cause so many problems and it would just, problems the attorneys have to [00:26:00] figure out

Christineone, , the stress on attorneys. I mean, and that's the other message to attorneys too, like. I am, and , some of my followers will get upset on this, but generally speaking I'm on attorney sides. There's obviously, oh, me too, obviously nefarious attorneys. And I'd say, like we talked about before, I'd say probably 20% of us got some things that, you know, maybe some problems or not problems. We all got problems. But maybe lean on the side of like not being on the up and up, just like probably law enforcement or any sort of government agency. Right.

HughYeah, I, I would have no idea the percentage, but certainly every profession has, yeah. I'm making it up and I think the higher the stress level in the profession mm-hmm. The. Probably the more prevalent it is. Again, that's an uneducated guess, but from what I've seen,

Christineyeah. But like lawyers are so, like we talk, there's a massive epidemic of Kentucky attorneys committing suicide and the stress component of representing clients. I mean, seriously, there were times during my career that were very dark, especially towards the end. And I'm sure you know, you've [00:27:00] talked about yours as well, like, so attorneys, . You shouldn't be spoken to like that. Do you know what I mean? There's never a scenario in which you should be spoken to like that. There's never a scenario in which you shouldn't be respected when you're doing your job adequately. Period. End of story. DM me, send me info time's up. Y'all are all like, I, you know, I got 20, 30 of y'all doing it right now. I'd like to get it up to a hundred.

HughWell, and I also think it's important to. Remind people that it's all confidential.

ChristineOh, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Hughyeah. And even if it's just, yeah, I don't wanna tell you what happened. I don't wanna get involved. I wanna send you the case number that maybe you guys just wanna look at, and you'll see something that you might wanna talk about. Fine with that, but always best way to do it too, very confidential

Christineway do is in motion hour send me somebody else's case. Y'all are doing that anyway. Also, I have a little algorithm for how I decide to look up cases that's random before looking at the attorney's name. So I very well could draw your case and you didn't even send it to me. And that's a message too for the judge out there. That's

Hughhappened a couple times. Oh yeah. We've talked [00:28:00] about cases. The attorneys have said, who have you been talking? You know, they've asked who have you talk to about the case? Nope. We. We found it, or somebody completely unrelated to the case said, Hey, hey, you might wanna check this out. You'll never believe what happened at motion hour or something like that. Yep.

ChristineAnd also, huge shout out to all the pro se followers. I got a lot of court watchers in Louisville, , family court right now that are actually tipping me off to things that are happening on zoom.

HughIt's a conversation that I think clients need to know the attorneys are having Yes. That they actually give a And this is not just taking their money, billing the hour and then just being part of a system that is doing these things. Yeah.

ChristineMost of us care.

HughYeah. Most of us care a lot and most of us care so much

Christinethat it physically causes us families. It

Hughcauses problems, it causes people to end their careers. It causes, unfortunately people, , to end their lives. Mm-hmm. And you, you talked about the attorneys committing suicide. I think we are now talking about it more. I don't, from my experience, that hasn't changed. That was, that's [00:29:00] been going on. I mean, I've What do you mean that I've just counting, I'm thinking of the people that I knew that took their own lives before I had kids. That's insane. And my kids are close to going off to college. Yeah. So a long time ago this was happening. It was hitting close to home even then. I think the very healthy mental health conversation that this country has had and people like generally are having over the last decade is bringing a lot more of it to light. Yeah. ,

ChristineI would say like the lowest of the lows in my practice actually was a hearing after in front of Censored Censored. , It was right, it was during the pandemic. It was after my car accident. Did you know that her sister had a traumatic brain injury? No.

ChristineAnd she put this on social media. She was so nice, like, oh my gosh, Christine, are you okay? I mean, messaging me all the time, liking every status, dah, dah, dah, dah. And I had a hearing in front of her. I remember I was so excited to get back into the courtroom. I had pink shoes on that were wicked cute. And I used to be known for my cute shoes in court. I'm in leggings right now, but I went to this hearing in her in Rainbow [00:30:00] Socks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Rainbow sucks. And she was so horrific to me and my client. I had some audio visual things that I didn't realize from the fluorescent lights that were had been under control, but the courthouse was so loud. Actually after the hearing, I messaged the then chief. Tara Haggerty said, please, can I come get acclimated to the courthouse? And she was like, I'll open it up for you anytime. I'll do anything that you need. She was so kind and thoughtful, but Censored was so horrific to my client. She yelled at her. . She could tell. We went up to the front and I was like, judge my head. I'm a little discombobulated. She was so evil. That was like, I went home that day and I was like, my life will never be the same. It was the lowest of the low. And I know how many people, how many other attorneys that she did the same thing to, , and I should have said this sooner. I don't, I didn't even tell my significant other at the time what a low that was. I mean, it was a really dark time. And I think hearing for other people that have been in front of her, I don't think I'm alone in that.

HughOh, there's no way you're alone in that. Yeah. I think I've, I've talked to attorneys who were new to practicing [00:31:00] in Louisville who had their first hearing in her division. And we're just, didn't know what to say. Just walked out thinking, holy shit, this is like, what in the world is going on here?

ChristineAnd she could control it. 'cause she was nice as a peanut butter pie.

HughWell, you could control it too. I had a specific strategy for her court. I would set up some situation if the other side was dishonest, which oftentimes were against people that have lied at some, as in some aspect of their case. And I would. Set them up, and it may not be dispositive of any major issue in their case. Mm-hmm. But I would set them up to where I could catch them in a clear lie. I'd get them to say something, I'd get them to triple down on it. I ask it five different ways, so they can't say they didn't understand the question. Then I would just show that they lied under oath and remind them that they're under oath. And she would get so mad that sometimes I wouldn't speak again for minutes, because she would just tear into them and start asking questions and would get so upset. [00:32:00] That if you got to go first and that set the tone for the hearing, it didn't matter what your client did at that point.

ChristineYeah, I just, I gotta segue onto something else 'cause I'm gonna say, so something I shouldn't say. I,

Hughyou know, the funny thing was I got used to her on in district court, and I wasn't in district court much, but I practiced with some people and they would cover for me, I'd cover for them, I'd go through and do the district court docket in the morning and she was just. One of the most pleasant people that I ever went in front of on the district court docket. She would just as, she just handled things efficiently, she went straight through. If you came through and you were efficient and said the right things and you were very polite, oh my gosh, you just got reward. Which was a shock to me because as a GAL, she was the toughest GAL I'd ever seen. And I, I enjoyed working with her because she worked her cases, she knew everything about them. She didn't just, you know, pretend to have like a five minute interview with someone and then, you know, try to tell a judge what to do. And this was back in the day when the gals were [00:33:00] FOCs and gals roll all into once you this, which means they wrote a report. Yeah, they wrote a report and advised the court. She was not always on my side, but you knew that she had done so much work on every one of those cases, but she was tough. She made everybody cry, men, women, everybody. So when I saw her on district court, the district court bench, and she was so polite, I was just like. This must be more her speed She seems very happy. So I, I just thought maybe it'd be that way in family court and very quickly it was just like,

Christineoh my gosh. I mean the lives and that she ruined or that she's affected negatively. I have tens of thousands probably.

HughI don't know about that. I know that ,

Christineyou wanna make a bet.

HughI've won, I've won in front of her at hearings and I've had clients walk out. Shaking Uhhuh and just breakdown crying. Mm-hmm. And when they got it together again, they said they never wanted to go in there again. And we had just won.

ChristineMm-hmm.

HughLike across the board won? No, and they would, we'd never go in front of her again because they were so shaken from the experience. Her

Christinebehavior was, there's no question it was abusive. I don't even think we have to say allegedly. I [00:34:00] mean, she was verbally abusive to most people at most times in court. So we got a question, and the question is, who do you recommend that is not afraid to stand up to these FOCs gals and judges?

HughWow. I think, I think it's important for us to state that we aren't in the business of recommending or promoting any. Business or attorney? I think we can talk generally about what to look for. From an attorney, I definitely have a strong personal opinion on who isn't afraid , and who would be great in those circumstances. But , in this capacity for the Judgmental podcast and for judgy, , I'm not endorsing people and we're not endorsing businesses at the moment. I, I think.

ChristineYeah, it's also a dangerous, like a slippery slope. Yeah. Because what if, you know, I've been out of the practice for a minute. What if it's just not a good fit with that person? Like I'm uncomfortable just like saying names and being like, Hey, I endorse [00:35:00] you, but attorneys, this is the note for you. They're asking me who they should hire. Okay.

HughNo, that's absolutely right. And people are looking for attorneys uhhuh that actually do things. So from, , advising. Clients going to see an attorney simply ask the fir. The most important thing I think when selecting an attorney is that there's just a, and I won't say chemistry, you don't have to like each other at all. No. In fact, a lot of times. You need someone that is sort of, will hold a mirror up and it can be uncomfortable sometimes. Sometimes you need a little bit of a back and forth in that to, to get the advice that you need. Mm-hmm. And to see the bigger picture. But the communication and understanding, , that there has to be trust and there has to be communication. You have to trust that your attorney, when they tell you this is the strategy that they are thinking in your best interest and not doing what's expedient for them. You have to know that, and you will, you tend to figure that out pretty quickly , when you're speaking with an attorney, it needs to be a good [00:36:00] fit, even if they're very different from you, a different walk of life. You need to have that trust. You need to have similar communication styles because , I, from my experience in the career most. Complaints with attorneys are dealing with communication

Christinea hundred

Hughpercent.

ChristineThe most important thing I would say is you wanna have an attorney that will tell you what you don't wanna hear. Yeah. You have to have an attorney that said will tell you something that you don't wanna hear. If your attorney says Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Why don't you just write a six-figure blank check.

HughNo, that's true. I, I think that's exactly right. But when you're interviewing attorneys, ask them, ask them how they've stood up to, or if they've dealt with. An FOC or a GAL who has not done their job, and if they've had to stand up to 'em, number one, if the attorney tells you that they've never encountered that situation before, then they've either never practiced in, actually practiced in family law, or they're not telling you the truth. Number two. Not just asking them how they've handled it. Ask for examples, because attorneys will be able to say, look, [00:37:00] I ran into this. Here's what I had to do. Mm-hmm. If they've taken active steps to remedy the situation, or to maybe get the person removed or to do some extra discovery to make sure that the facts of the case came out, even if the court appointed person was not looking for them. Then you're probably dealing with someone who knows how to handle it , and will protect your rights.

ChristineYeah, and I would say when you're going to, and I'm working on putting something together like a little template for what you should take to your attorney, but you need to write down all your questions. Lawyers, it's a power imbalance between a lawyer and a client, Avi, and we have a really good ability to control the conversation. Compared to everyone else, I would say. Right?

HughYeah. I mean, that's what we're paid to do in court. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so

Christineyou, we can get you off topic even if we don't necessarily mean to Yeah. Like it's like you'll leave and you'll be like, I had seven questions I didn't ask or I didn't see this scenario. I would really like

Hughbe direct.

ChristineYeah. [00:38:00] And shop around. I mean, you're not gonna go spend $10,000 without driving, you know, test driving a couple cars. Not that a car's 10,000, but I mean down payment. But if

Hughyou find one that's obviously a good fit. You know, and you, you wanna move forward. I mean, you generally should know it when it's correct. It's strange to say it's like a love, but I can feel I got, I like to say I got very good with when I'm consulted with clients, you just knew that Oh yeah, that's gonna work. Yep. And that person will be hiring me. Mm-hmm. The other piece of advice is just be very direct attorneys. Appreciate it. We do. It feels intimidating going and speaking with an attorney. I understand. Or any professional. Like if I go, there's so many people that I used to be. Intimidated to go speak with, 'cause it's someone that has expertise that's outside of my wheelhouse and they're the expert. Mm-hmm. But just be direct. The attorneys appreciate it. Yep. I loved when people would come in and grill me and ask me questions. It showed, number one, they were thinking they knew what they were looking for. They knew what was important to them and

ChristineI knew what was important to them. Yeah. And

HughI [00:39:00] could answer it. Yeah. And I could tell them if, if they were off if they were asking me something that was irrelevant, I would say I, I'll answer that. But I think you're asking the wrong questions. Yep. But I those conversations were so refreshing. It, it just extremely di extremely direct. Yep. Yep. If you come in and they have a baby face, ask 'em how many times they've been to court. Yeah. Ask those things. Attorneys are, you know, we are, we're big kids. We Yeah, yeah. We can, we we can handle it. Handle it. Yeah. We can completely handle it. And if we can't. Then you don't want that person representing you.

ChristineYeah, I mean, and just to say like, just because you have a baby face. I mean, when I started my practice I was 29 and I probably at 29 had represented more people in court. Now, not family court, to be fair at the time, but , then a lot of litigators too, so don't sometimes the young ones that are ready to go. Also generally speaking, I think anyone that worked at the public defender's office sure is a good hire.

HughWe good lawyer, we Hi. Yeah. Well, we hired them as a firm. Yeah. Because they, they've been in the courtroom more than anybody.

ChristineYeah.

HughI, I say that about the [00:40:00] baby face because I ran into that a ton.

ChristineYeah. And

HughI got asked that question a lot. Did you look young? And at first I was a little offended. Mm-hmm. And I just thought, oh, someday my hair will be gray. And I, you know, I won't get those questions anymore. But then I began to really appreciate it. Mm-hmm. . Attorneys spend their time advocating for a client, they basically are selling the case to the court. Mm-hmm. Whether it's a jury, whether it's the judge. By asking those questions, you give me a chance to articulate things that I know in my head but don't necessarily think about. Yeah. And I, and by selling myself and telling me why, , me telling you why I am a good fit for this case, it makes me a better fit for the case.

ChristineYep. A hundred percent. So why do judges not follow KRS statues and face no scrutiny So broad, but I think it goes to the fact that judges don't face any scrutiny really ever at all. And that's what we're trying to change.

HughYeah. , From a lawyer in practice, their point of view, the scrutiny is the court of appeals. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You don't follow a statute, it, [00:41:00] that's what the Court of appeals is there for. Mm-hmm. And I will say through a lot of my, my career. I always had the feeling the court of appeals just didn't worry too much with family court cases that so many things in family court I agree are discretionary, that you would take things up that were. Not discretionary. Clearly a rule wasn't followed or a law wasn't followed and they would just act like it's disco discre, you know, they didn't seem that interested in it. Boy, that has shifted and the court of appeals now looks for those violations. I am very happy to see that they are publishing cases that are representative of things that happen routinely in the court.

ChristineWe got a question and we've gotten some hate, question for attorneys to hold judges accountable who are attorneys belonging to the same bar emoji like this, like, no way.

Hugh, I can definitely see how someone might feel that way, but what do they [00:42:00] think about attorneys going after other attorneys? That happens all the time as well. It just, yeah, it's one big bar. We've all been through the same training. I just.

ChristineI don't know. And I get this so much and I think it maybe is new to you 'cause I can tell a little bit from your reaction that you're shocked that anyone would think that we're literally two attorneys that aren't practicing right now because we couldn't take it anymore. And we've dedicated, basically our livelihood to holding judges accountable and people think that we, it's like one big club and it's smoke and mirrors. And I'll say, I think the reason for that is, is a lot of the whole G-A-L-F-O-C court appointed practice where everybody just sees like, everybody's out to get me, we're one club.

HughWell, I, one of the things I hated most in my practice was when I would be told by someone who was appointed on a case or worked on a docket of some sort you know, regularly worked in front of one judge as a parent's attorney, GAL. I, I understand what you're saying, but that's just how we do it here.

ChristineMm-hmm. [00:43:00]

HughMeaning forget the rules, forget the law. We sort of have a system worked out. You better play along and we

Christineget happy hour after we're done.

HughAnd that does happen. Mm-hmm. All the time. So to a certain extent, , there are clubs, but I can tell you that was frustrating to the majority of the attorneys that I knew, to the point of. People were very angry about it and, and people don't choose to look the other way and people fight it. I have a lot of colleagues that are filing appeals and fighting that very sentiment in that environment over in the court. I think they, and sometimes to their own detriment. You know, being able to go back in that division.

ChristineAnd I just think that the avenue wasn't there. Like I know I tried the avenues that I thought I was supposed to go, I told other judges what happened. I told the judicial Conduct Commission what happened, and then nothing came from it. And so I do think attorneys in the day to day, it is not encouraged to speak out about this bad behavior, which is why you and I started this. I mean, that's what our intent behind it [00:44:00] was, was just to make everyone aware of what's happening. Right.

HughYeah, absolutely. And I. I reached a stage in my career where what I was doing to try to help people and help families mm-hmm. Was just being undermined by what I was seeing and when considering a, a shift. To do something different to try something fresh and something different. I try to take a more direct approach Yeah. That might actually help people in the future and can help people avoid some of the trauma and some of the problems that I saw for 20 years litigating in family court.

ChristineAnd I'm all for like, let us earn. Go in skeptical, but give us a chance to show you what it is we're trying to do and try to build. That's what I would say to these people that are like, oh, you're, it's one big club. Just give us a shot. You know what I mean?

HughLawyers earn a lot of the bad reputation. True. But there are plenty of people that are never gonna listen to attorneys. Mm-hmm. Why are you commenting on it? Why are you listening to it? Mm-hmm. If you're not gonna trust what an attorney says anyway, go. There's plenty of other videos or cat videos or, you know, [00:45:00] hateful things to go look at online. Cat videos. You don't, you don't, you don't have to watch, but. Yeah, give us a shot.

ChristineBut speaking of, let's go on to our viral clip of the week. And remember if you want us to analyze one tag, judge underscore y on TikTok, judging the judges on Instagram or anything with me is Kentucky Christine. And we every week are gonna look at judges kind of, maybe not judges behaving badly, but I would just say viral judge moments. I think that's the better way to put it. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, that's smart. So let me, we've gotten, I've gotten 17 text messages since we started this. That shows how excited people are. All right, let's watch. At the same time. Well, I, excuse me, Asia, who?

HughWhy are you so late? She making a sandwich? Mm-hmm. [00:46:00] Uh, because I have a paper right here that shows my court started at one o'clock, but then when I called, uh, right here, if you can look on this thing right here, it says one o'clock.

ChristineHe's not looking at the paper, he is looking at his docket.

HughNo, he doesn't appear to be looking. It looks like I saw 9:00 AM I have, well, I had one on one of those papers. You're just showing abridge. Excuse me. I know. Put your, put whatever, whatever you're trying to prepare now I'm trying be my daughter. Get your coat, get, get, take your, you gotta put your [00:47:00] properly dressed on. I don't, I properly dress. I have on a t-shirt. I'm properly Is that a rob? It's a problem, sir. Not even doing that. Do you ask me a question? I'm answering. My daughter is sick. I had to keep going from school. I'm just trying to feed her. That is it. I'm

Christinesorry that your daughter is sick, but again, are you? You okay? Treat it as I have. Clothes. Clothes

Christineit. All right. What do you think?

HughI think this is a good example of what can go wrong with having Zoom hearing. Or Zoom court. Great. And I know that you are not a fan of Zoom. I absolutely love it. I think it's important and a very hard thing for judges to do to make it still be [00:48:00] court when people are standing there in their own environment. Yeah. I think it's a constant frustration. I know, especially during the pandemic, the kinds of things we would see. I mean, and as attorneys, you're standing there, it's not on your case. You're watching some person pro se do something or you hear a toilet flush because someone's got their audio on while they're waiting for their case to be called. It was funny, you know? Yeah. For a little while it was novel and funny, but to me. , I agree here that he's telling her You're in court. This is a court proceeding. I get that she is staying at home with her kid who's sick. That stinks. I've been there. I know. I know how that is. But you're still in a court of law when you're appearing by Zoom. You are still in a court. You don't talk over the judge.

ChristineWell, I mean, it's Zoom too. That's one of the problems though. It's so hard to read the room because somebody asked you a question. I don't, you don't. I immediately respond. Don't think that was hard to read the room. I think that a very poor reading of the, of the room, but she

Christinehad a picture up and we don't know what the charge is. So if it's like a traffic [00:49:00] ticket compared to, you know, we don't know that. But she says I have something that says I have to be there at one. And he's like, well, I got something that says I have to be here at nine. Which y'all

Hughwe know happens all the time.

ChristineI mean, literally happens hundreds of times a day probably in, oh, at least in Kentucky.

HughBut I don't know what actually happened there if she was told to be there at one o'clock. Yeah, , I would see that happen all the time. And, and that's gonna happen when you, when you have a court that processes tens of thousands of cases if she's in a large location especially.

ChristineYeah.

HughBut I, I'm just, you know, commenting on the interaction there, I. I just can't imagine if I'm on the bench and I'm constantly dealing with people that are in a bathroom making a sandwich and talking over with me, and.

ChristineWell,

Hughshe's trying

Christineto explain why she's late though. 'cause he's like, why are you late? And she's like, I got one o'clock and I've got a piece of paper that says one. He's like, no, no, no. I've got nine. And so agree. You're on the wrong foot right there. Yeah. Also , okay,

HughI, but it didn't [00:50:00] help that the camera was showing you making a sandwich. I mean, for your

Christinesick daughter.

HughUnderstand that, but.

ChristineI don't, I mean, it's not, I'm not asking for, I agree. It's not a perfect way to, it's not a perfect, I wouldn't advise

Hughdo it. I think it's, I think it would be disrespectful to someone that wasn't a judge. If you're on a Zoom meeting with somebody or you start off by saying, I'm so sorry that I'm having to do that. I mean, we've all had that. Yeah. I've had to attend a motion hour or a hearing and start it from my car because I was racing from another court. Yeah. Or I had one time I got rear ended. And I had a hearing coming up and I had to, I had to send someone from the office over to cover for me, but I had to log in from my car while I was waiting for the police to be there to file a report. It happens. Yeah. But I usually would start that conversation by saying, yeah, I'm sorry, your Honor. This is what's going on. This is why I'm sitting in my car, whatever.

ChristineBut let's back up. Like now, if a lawyer were doing that, I would have a very different critique that is a pro se person. And I'm not saying what she did was perfect, but [00:51:00] also it, it goes back to judges just not understanding that they work for the general public. And I just don't see the necess, like, I don't see meaning like, oh, dress properly for court, which she did have on a t-shirt. I mean, she, it looked like she had a robe, like, or maybe her kid's blanket thrown over. But I mean, in fairness, what's the judge wearing?

HughA robe over it. So you can't sit a robe.

ChristineI mean, you know, it's just like, pick your battles. And to me it's one of those condensation, wait, is that, that's air conditioning, the condescending notion that judges have LOL. That's like my normal, , it's. Bullet, county educated speak, but I, you know, I don't necessarily think this judge is like way outta line like the last, when we watched by any means this, this

Hughdoesn't bother me. And I, that's strange to say, and we probably disagree on some of these others. I remember when I first started my practice and was kind of appalled. Because I mean, when you go to law school and you do the training, you think it's this great formal process and you go to your first court appearances, especially on a cattle call [00:52:00] docket or in district court mm-hmm. Where a lot of the people are pro se and they're sitting there and you realize, oh, that person's wearing pajama pants and like pink bunny slippers. Mm-hmm. That person is dressed head to toe in, like marijuana, kind of get up to show up for court. There, there are things like that that it bothered me only in as much as, as like I felt that. I could feel how serious this was. It was very serious to me. Yeah. And I, and when a judge would speak out and someone would walk up and they would have a shirt that had no sleeves and they were hanging out of it and like really short, they would walk up, they would make a comment about, next time you hear a dress appropriately for coming to court or ,

Christinethere's like the socioeconomic difference between judges. I get both sides of it now, but speaking about marijuana t-shirts, I mean, we got a judge here in Louisville that wears marijuana earrings. Well, and post about it on social media. I, I hear what you're saying, but a funny story about eastern Kentucky, about what to wear to court. There was this one guy that used to come to district court, and I don't know why he was in there all the time. This was Eastern Kentucky, so [00:53:00] you'd have like the regular. Every single time he'd come to court, he would wear the person that ran against the judge's, , campaign t-shirt. Honestly, this judge was so cool and thought it was funny, like, and you know, it was just like a small town dig, but he never took it out on the litigant. But I digress. Well, I mean, that

Hughcould have been, you know, if you were actually friends with the person, they were doing that just for fun at emotion hour. I could see that being funny, but I mean.

ChristineGood for them. And at least that judge was like, okay, you didn't vote for me, but I'm not gonna scream and yell at you. You know what I mean? But I mean,

HughAll in all honesty, if we are saying that these judges, and especially the ones that we've talked about mostly on this podcast, are dealing with things that are so serious Yeah. Yeah. To people. You've gotta expect people to take it seriously as well. You can't expect it just to be the judges that take it seriously if nobody else, if you are in outwardly outward appearances, not taking it serious yourself, I don't know that you have much to complain about. That's just sort of how I feel about it .

ChristineI think it's, I'm a top down person. [00:54:00] I think we all get Yeah. You know, we all learn from, , managers and I having higher expectation of a pro se litigant than I do a person wearing the black robe, but agree to disagree on this one.

HughNo, no, no. I agree with that. I, but I think that to the extent that it gets tolerated and, you know, a judge doesn't say something about it, then it just I think what we tolerate, we end up endorsing.

ChristineI hear ya.

HughFrom a judge, pick your battles. I get that, but

Christinethat's my jam with this one. Pick your battles. I would've been

Hughfrustrated too, and, and, you know. That while it happens all the time. And that woman probably had something that said 9:00 AM and we know, I mean, why Yeah. 1, 1, 1 pm and was supposed to be there at 9:00 AM 'cause I've seen that happen. It's happened on cases that I've had. Mm-hmm. As an attorney gets screwed up, that does happen. But you also know that judge has been sitting there and has heard so many people probably that day say, oh, I, I was told it was a different time. And then people that just w

Christineyou have to do the job you signed up for how many people at McDonald's? Don't like that job. How many people changing your oil? You know what I'm [00:55:00] saying? Blah, blah, blah. I'm

Hughjust, I'm just saying that there's going to be some built-in level of skepticism there. 'cause you're probably fed a line of BS by a lot of people about that. Sad me,

ChristineI have the job that I signed up for and paid to, you know, run for office or got appointed by a governor.

HughWell, you might be. You, you might get a different reaction from a judge if you were appearing and appearing professionally.

ChristineBoo hoo hoo. I You're not making a

Hughsandwich and talking over the judge. So,

Christinebut anyway. Well, that is a great place to segue. Y'all, we are so excited. Like we really are on cloud nine today. Our podcast dropped probably like three hours ago when the feedback has been like. So overwhelming. Like honestly, I probably will cry. I like tears of joy later. And you're excited. I can tell. Like we are just like amped up and we like, appreciate y'all so much. Send us questions that you have. This is a process judge y.com, , judgey on all of the platforms. If you search, tell us your stories and if you are in the public and you like this, seriously, they think that they can control you with yard [00:56:00] signs and public action committees. They're wrong. Okay. Like share, send info.

Speaker 4Yeah. Yeah. We need some. Justice. Justin found justice.