Pardon the Delay

[00:00:00] On today's episode of the Judgmental Podcast, we dive into the major problem that is delays in Family court. Hugh shares a personal experience of what happened to his client in Oldham County. I dive in and give more backstory about my journey over the last two years since I left family Court.

ChristineOldham was one of my least favorite counties to go to. I think.

HughI, I, for my clients I say you gotta stay out because you are not gonna get an order No. For years. If you're financially disadvantaged Yeah. Then it's gonna get worse before it gets better. How long did

Christineyou wait for that one order outta olden that everybody in the world knows about?

HughOh, it was over two years. Mm-hmm. It was a two day trial. There were multiple case management conference that my partner and I think it opposing counsel, so there were three parties to the case. So it was a complex case, but it involved a child. It involved a very sick one of the parties to [00:01:00] the marriage was very sick. Mm-hmm.

HughIt involved a house that was being lost, a business and a farm that were falling apart. Things like they were just, they were losing everything. And they had this third party claim to, I believe, one of the pieces of real estate. And they had intervened and there was a business interest that needed to be resolved. And so the case took about two days to try. And then next, how long before trial? Like

Christinehow long before day cases filed till trial? I

Hughdon't know. Like, I don't remember. I wasn't the primary on that case. But

Christinemore than a year probably.

HughYeah, I'm sure. Okay. I'm sure. I mean, even a basic case is gonna take that long if you have to go to trial. So it took a long time to get to trial. Had the trial scheduled. There were lots of depositions. There were just people hiding money. One of the parties had been. For instance, we found through Discovery had been taking his paycheck and he sent he divided one paycheck into 20. He had it spread among 20 different bank accounts. 20, or it might have been 22, but it was 20 or more. Mm-hmm. So it'd be [00:02:00] hard to track how much money was coming in. Yeah. And was only showing like, part of it. I mean, it was one of those, but during the two years post-trial, there were, there was some motion, some litigation that occurred. It was almost all because they had not had a ruling and something was happening and both parties were filing for case management conference for the sole purpose of saying, judge, this is falling apart. We need an order. We need kept hearing. We needed a decision. Yeah, I'm working on it. I'm putting finishing touches on, I'm about to get it out. And then another, you know, six months would go by, bring it before the motion hour it gets, get really, you know, the court would be very annoyed that we're bringing it up again. And it, by the time we were done, the house was already gone. Third party issue was, I guess extinguished probably. 'cause they lost the house. Mm-hmm. Something like that. I mean, it was, that issue was resolved. The child was no longer a child by the time the order came out and the motions for child support were pending through the whole thing. So, I mean, yeah, each month that goes [00:03:00] by there is accumulated child support, but the order came out and said, well, by this time the child's 18th, so child support is moot and awarded nothing.

ChristineYou're kidding me. For

Hughthe intervening two years. And it's just

Christinetoo late to, I mean, and the parties at that point probably didn't even have money to appeal. They,

Hughthey got to, it was funny. That is the one thing that could get those parties to sit down at the table and settle because they sat down and settled because we told 'em the appeal would be, eh, the appeal's what, a year, year and a half. And that's I mean that's just, we know that's what it is. Yeah. And they didn't wanna do it. And we told them what would happen on appeal. Even if they said the judge got it all wrong. They would say, go back in front of that same judge, do it all over again. And I mean, I think one of the litigants. Legitimately was concerned that by the time it got resolved at that point they would no longer be alive.

ChristineOh my goodness. And so, I mean, how tragic though it got

Hughsettled and it got settled in a way that was a terrible compromise. So much worse than what I believed our client should get. But the other side didn't do a whole lot better because so many of the assets were lost. Yeah. Because neither of them could do anything with them to save them while the [00:04:00] court was waiting trauma. And, and at the same time I had that, I had another one that was well over a year that we were waiting on that involved two little kids and allegations of substance abuse cohabitation with, with somebody that was, you know, the new boyfriend who the kids were not supposed to be exposed to. And they were, you know, went to go live with them in the intervening time. And we can't get an order out to do anything.

ChristineYeah,

Hughwell over a year.

ChristineI mean, there is zero excuse for that. I don't care how many cases, I don't care. I mean, and this is one of the problems and hopefully the, you know, the judges will be listening, but no matter how complacent you become with your job, I mean, big picture, there has to be a better way to do it. Or, or we should just give up quit frankly. I mean, if this is the best that the system can operate as, we just should give up.

HughWell, I mean, to a certain extent, you and I both took different paths to get to that, to giving up and we, we faced some, you know, something happened there, there was a reflection [00:05:00] point for each of us for totally different reasons where we thought, thought,

Hughokay, I, like, for me personally, it was, I, I got to about the 20 year point. Yeah. It was

Hughtime to, a lot of my decision was based on business things and what I wanted the business to look like, and if I wanted to spend the next 20 years doing the same thing, or I wanted to go in new ventures. Yeah. And I was fortunate enough to be in a position I could kind of do whatever I wanted, but. The other part of it was I had already pulled back from so much from the actual practice itself because I was just, just I didn't believe in the system. The system didn't work. I, when I came in as an attorney, believed that if you're more prepared and you can tell the best story and you do the things right and you object to the right time, you go through that, you're set to win. And it's just, well, hell, I was more

Christinenaive than that. I thought that the truth is what would matter.

HughOh, wow. Bless my heart, you know? Yeah. But I mean, I understand you, you had, I mean, you had brushes actually with the system and got to see from a [00:06:00] litigants point of view or from someone other than an attorney. You know, how the system worked?

ChristineWell, I mean, I, I got divorced and that's what made me realize I knew all the answers, quote unquote, you know what I mean? But I would get an email from my attorney at the time and it would just send you into this spiral and you know what the judge is gonna do, but it's still the notion that you're with somebody that knows everything about you. And it really changed the way I practice with my clients. Yeah. It was like they are going through such an emotional time. Like you can't articulate it in a way until it happens to you. And I mean, thank God I didn't have kids and yada, yada yada. But still, it's just a very, it's a, it's your personal business in a court of law. And there is not a single person out here that hasn't done something that they don't want to have to testify to. You know what I mean?

HughAbsolutely.

ChristineAnd, and, you know, and. It did change the way I treated my clients and I did love the notion of being like, we can get resolutions, we can get those sort of things. But I do think my journey to get where I am today was, you know, that was my divorce was [00:07:00] when, God bless, I don't even know. 2017, I think maybe 2018. And then as everyone in Louisville knows in 2019, I was on the way to motion hour for something I should have never been going to motion hour for. And I was a pedestrian, got hit by a truck suffered a concussion, traumatic brain injury and was, it took a long time to be properly diagnosed and then was off work. I was cleared to go back to work part-time when the world shut down for COVID which was a blessing in disguise for me to fully heal. But you do have this different perspective in the sense that. The best, the best way I can explain it is like the night before the accident, I don't really remember what I was doing. Like I don't have a clear memory, but I'm sure it was like ordering DoorDash, having wine stressed out about all of the motions I had to go through the next day. It was a gor, you know, gorgeous Sunday. And then you realize like, that could have been it. Mm-hmm. And like, so what was the point? And that really started the process of, what is it? I wanna live each day that if I get hit by a truck, I wanna be [00:08:00] happy with what what I did that day. And really had a process of that and was back in the system, but really wanted to get out of it. I mean, especially because COVID trying to figure out my next steps. And then obviously that's when the ex parte thing happened with the TikTok judge and the domestic violence victim I was representing. And so that was sort of, the beginning of the end, you know, for me. And some of the judges try to utilize that to say certain things. You know, Denise Brown actually put it in a court order. Put what she put that I had suffered a traumatic brain injury in a court order. Just as a dig. And that was the case with the dome domestic violence as

Hugha court order, not in your personal case, but No, you were, were you were an attorney, attorney. Attorney. Yeah. After

Christineshe'd ex parte me, I filed a motion for her to recuse. No, most people don't know that

Hughpersonal details of an attorney being put into a court order is

Christineoh, beyond inappropriate. Wow. I actually did, and my poor client, after everything that they had been through with this notion of just the sheer incompetence that was [00:09:00] family court and, and going and seeking protection, and again, I don't wanna get into the specifics of that client's case until I have their full permission. But it's all a matter of public record. But that was, I mean, the level of vindictiveness from this judge, and obviously I filed the appropriate motion, it was sent to a different judge, and of course the judge struck all of that nonsense from the record because just blatantly, I mean, that's like fourth grade level. Mean girl type stuff, but I digress. But these judges are going to utilize that they already have utilized my car accident to say that I'm not right, or that it has affected my ability. And you know, like I say, jokingly, like two things can be true at the same time. I can be crazy and y'all are bad at your job, you know? I mean, what do you and I do? Every anybody out there that's listening, like after this, I, I got hit in 2019 and it was a struggle. I mean, a [00:10:00] significant struggle. I struggled financially, emotionally, physically, mentally but I got properly diagnosed, got proper treatment. Since that time, I have been on a nonprofit, the board of a nonprofit. I have run for judge. I have bought a house, I have, rented out a realty company. Like there is not a notion, anyone listening that it's not gonna be okay. And that you got this, you know, just because people wanna exploit, they are what's the word? Lazy. So that's the best way is just to attack someone personally. And also some of them that are attacking me personally, they had my yard sign up when I ran for judge in their yard after my accident. So that puts things in perspective for how how much they thought it affected me at the time.

HughYeah. I've, I've not had that experience. I, my experiences were never personal to me. They were personally disturbing to me. I think were, some of my experiences in court were a large factor in being on anxiety medicine and being unwell in my practice is because a [00:11:00] family law practice is rather unique in that you just get so involved in people's lives, especially when you're dealing with kids issues that even kids you've never met, you are. It's like you're defending your own child sometimes. Mm-hmm. And especially when you know you're on the side of the person that's doing everything right and, and really cares for the, for the child. And to see kids ripped away at a moment's notice at a hearing that you'll never see this child again. And, you know, to this day, years later, have never seen the child again when that's the only person who had raised the child from, from birth. Just because you know, frankly, maybe a judge is just in a bad mood or doesn't like, you know, that you filed something in another court just because it had been sitting for six months inactive in his or hers. Yeah.

HughI mean, seeing those kinds of things felt very personal. I, and I think that was because I had kids. But, but again, that's very different than having. The personal experience that you have and, [00:12:00] and your personal details coming into pleadings. But

Christinewell the personal thing to me really is just more the, realizing the ineffectiveness of a system.

HughYeah.

ChristineYou know what I mean? Like, you realize, okay, 'cause she did this to me, and then you think, oh my gosh, imagine what she's doing to people. That don't have law license, that are pro se or that can't defend themself all in a matter to have more of like political power. But I do think you touched on like anxiety medication. I don't know. I mean, there is a lot of trauma and mental health issues within the family law profession. Sure.

ChristineYou know, I mean, hon I'm on honestly healthier now than I was when I got hit by a car. I was on anxiety medication when I got hit. And my doctor believes that that had an effect on, you know, my, my brain at the time because it does mess with it. So I would say my brain's probably healthier today than it was before. I'm

Hugha lot healthier than when I, when I practiced. But I think, you know, the, the, when you say there's a lot of trauma in, in family law, I mean, I think there's, there are [00:13:00] different types. I think on the one hand you've got people that go into family law because they've experienced mm-hmm. Really bad situations in their families or when they were a child and they want to. Be an advocate and they want to fight for, you know, fight within a system that actually helps resolve some of those things. Or at least that's why they get into it, thinking that it does. You also have people that are traumatized by the system once they get into it. That, that was how I was, I didn't, I didn't come into this as a mission because of some trauma I'd had in my personal life. Mm-hmm. It wasn't a personal mission. It was a business decision. I liked being in court and family law puts you in court. Mm-hmm. A lot more. And I did, I didn't, I didn't have that personal connection to it at all until I had my own kids and my practice changed greatly when everybody that came in and talked about their kids, I just saw it differently. It wasn't like just another thing we're fighting over. I got it as a parent and that that changed, but I, I mine. To [00:14:00] the extent there was any personal trauma, it was just feeling like something that I had believed in, that I had obviously naively come into thinking, this is a court of law, this is how it works. There are rules. Yeah. Attorneys fight by the rules. We're gonna do everything in our power to win for our client and do what's right, but within the rules. Mm-hmm. And then you come in and just being told sometimes blatantly from the bench oh, I don't enforce that rule in my courtroom, or, or I don't care

Christinewhat the case law says.

HughYeah. Or just, that's fine. Take me upstairs. Basically meaning appeal me. Mm-hmm. I don't care. And, and just regularly being told that it just sort of demeaned it, it felt like I was practicing somewhere other than a real court or in a, in a proper profession. Like, and, and I think that to a certain extent, at least as far as family law goes, 'cause that's where I made my, my the most the bulk of the years of my career. Starting off in international environmental law, but mainly worked as a family lawyer for 20 years. [00:15:00] I got the feeling that other people sort of thought that way about family court. Oh. It's just, it's not this area where there, there are rules and it's just different in family court. Oh, I don't touch family court. You hear from so many other attorneys. I'll go to circuit court, I'll go over to district court. Yeah. They may be a general practitioner doing DUIs in the morning, probate in the afternoon, going over there and doing a contract dispute in circuit court. And those are all very different things. But those same people will often say, oh, I don't touch family court. That's just a different animal.

ChristineIt is its own animal. And I mean I, and how I stumbled upon it, you know, we talked about last time and I did love it for quite some time, but I do think we have the biggest burnout. I also think,

Hughoh no doubt

Christineto explain. Like there's a few things that you said today that I know from like the community that they think that attorneys really, are corrupt with the judges. And I think what they don't understand, and I don't mean to say this like in a condescending way, but what people on the outside don't see, like you mentioned, like, hey, the judge is, you're waiting on an order and so you're filing a motion, Hey judge, we need this order. And [00:16:00] people don't understand why we don't do that every week. And it's because we know the judge has the power via that order to destroy them. We're

Hughprotecting our client by not doing it. Yes. But we're also taking the blame because we don't seem that we're being proactive. Yeah. And it's, we've seen how vindictive. Punitive. The judges can be when you point those things out. And retaliatory. Yeah. And retaliatory. Yeah. And that's exactly right.

ChristineAnd like, I mean, you'll tell judge, Hey Judge, you can't ex parte, you have to recuse. And it's like, Hey, you had a traumatic brain injury a year ago. I mean, that's the result that you're gonna get in a public setting. You know? I mean, that's what Denise Brown did. And so imagine if you're a litigant. And I do think, obviously we'd be naive to think or to say that a hundred percent of attorneys are on the up are legit. That's insane. We don't believe it. I don't believe it. I've seen attorneys do things that I would never do. I've seen things we, we know who

Hughthey are. The ones that you see from motion hour would just walk in the back at the beginning of motion hour, then come back out and sit down with the rest of the attorneys. You know, they just walked in the back and talked to the judge and their buddies. Yeah. And just.

ChristineYeah. Oh. And I mean, that [00:17:00] happens. That happens like, but I don't think the large percentage of attorneys are bad. I really don't. Even the ones I don't like personally.

HughYeah. And, you know, and there are plenty of lazy practitioners or people that just don't know the rules, but some of that is reinforced by the system. Mm-hmm. I have practiced in family courts in other states, pro hac, viche or, you know, what's that mean? Other states where I Oh, where, where they, where the courts will let you practice on a specific case by case basis. You file a request, you get the backing of an attorney that's barred in that state and you say, I have an interest in practicing within this. I will follow the rules of, you know, Florida. And it's only for one case. Yeah. Or you, you can practice for that case as long as it takes your, your part of that case, but it'll be in family court. And I remember a specific hearing in Florida and I thought the judge was just absolutely nasty to everyone. But. The way she was nasty was just absolutely busting everybody's balls about not, if you made a legal argument, you had to [00:18:00] cite not only the case, but the page where that they could find that. And you had to have filed something or have a copy. Now, of course, if someone makes an argument and you're responding and you didn't have any idea they were gonna make that argument, you would think you'd get some grace. But it was just like, where can I find that? No, no, no. I don't wanna know generally about it. Where do I find that? I'm looking at the case now, where do I find it? And just the rules were so absolutely strict. And they treated it, I mean, the clients were yelling at one another. I mean, they were, it was emotional. It was all the things that family law is. Yeah, it makes you different from other court settings. But man, it was a court of law. And law mattered and rules mattered. And I remember in that case the result, if you were not an attorney, didn't understand why it happened that way, you would see completely unjust. Mm-hmm. I still don't agree with it because I'm, I'm biased toward my, our client, but it was a plausible result and it was the result of rules and whether this was met or that was [00:19:00] met and what the rule said. And, you know, it's sort of, what's, what's the old saying? It's better for a hundred guilty men to go free than an innocent man to be, or, you know, what, whatever that Yeah. That, that saying is, you kind of think

Christineit, it just, at least it was a court of law and at least it was, there were, was a procedure the wrong

Hughper the wrong person may win and, and people may still be hurt by it, but I like, I mean, the kids, the parent who doesn't have the kids' best interest at heart may win because they present better, or deadlines are met or someone does discovery better. Someone pays a better attorney. That happens. But I still believe that the system being consistent and having rules will ultimately get much better results overall than the chaos we have now on the average than something that is so completely unpredictable. That basically trains attorneys to just do all kinds of things that you would never see in, in any other court or any other setting. [00:20:00] Mm-hmm. And I think last time we talked, uh, like talked about an attorney that when I was trying to get a damning piece of evidence in front of his client, the attorney would just swat it out my hand and the papers would fly. I not really that, and I just, we got stared at by the judge. I'd look up waiting for her to do something. She didn't do it, grabbed another set. 'cause I had three sets. You know, one was for the judge, one was for my client, one was to give to the opposing side. And I go through all three and he swats 'em all down. And there's just piles of papers around just so I can't ask him questions about it. And, you know, no direction to have your client answer the que It was just absolute chaos. And I, I just remember that day being impactful to me, that's just like, no matter how well I'm prepared and how I, I'm not gonna kick and scream. I'm gonna walk in there, I'm gonna present the facts. I'm gonna follow the rules. Didn't matter. Doesn't matter.

ChristineAnd your client, that's the flip side of it too. Then you have to go and tell your client, Hey, you just paid me $2,000 for today. $2,500 for prep. You know, I mean, et cetera, et cetera. That was every

Hugh$10,000 day. Yeah. But I, I continued representing her for [00:21:00] years after that. And I don't know that we ever went back in front of the judge on anything. Majors did. She learned. We got, we got things done.

ChristineOh, you wanna hear a funny story? I had a child support hearing one time. It was like, so basic and obvious. It's in front of a prior judge. I won't say their name, but my client literally pushed the like silent button and said like, is this real life? Are we in a movie? Because it was just like, somehow we were talking about he was owed child support and it got to where the 14 or 15 or 16-year-old child was maybe smoking marijuana allegedly, which was not even remotely before the court. I actually don't, and not relevant to

Hughchild support in any way, shape or form.

ChristineAnd none. And also like it was allegations that had happened, like when it was under a different parenting schedule. It was so bizarre. And he was one of my favorite, he's one of my first clients ever. And I remember him being like, I'll never go back in there. Like, I'm gonna listen to you forever. And I'm like, I told you, you don't want these people making decisions. And that doesn't happen. It d in my experience and I'm gonna give like, I'm gonna get, [00:22:00] well, I don't know, maybe I'll wait to give a shout out to one of the judges. I wanna see how much feedback. 'cause I do know that, that this judge in particular will get negative feedback. But in my experience was always great, was always great to me, was always followed the law. Have you ever been held in contempt?

HughI have been told multiple times that if I said another word, I would be in the room next door, which is the holding chamber. And especially like over in, in, in a lot of the counties, the courtrooms are all built the same to where even if it's being used as a family court room, they're used to having inmates put in a waiting room right outside the courtroom and then brought in by the deputy. So they will have this room holding cell. Yeah, holding cell basically is what it is. I have been told that. Who are, you say? I actually, no, I'm trying to think. Oh man. Judge Garvey, Kevin Garvey did it one time and I don't know that he would've really done it. He outside of court was one of my favorites. 'cause he was a prankster and he would do things. Yeah, I know. And he was, but man, I, I was always afraid, afraid to be in front of him. But I [00:23:00] remember him, he told me that a couple times. I have been warned about it in a way that I took as a, just a warning, not that I was, close to it. I think that was in Mead County early on and in front of a judge who was known for Lock Judge Miller up. No judge. Uh, I loved

Christinehe rest in peace. I loved him. What was her

Hughname? Embry.

ChristineAh, maybe

Hughshe, she had so two of my colleagues had been arrested and whenever they went down there, had been arrested for contempt in her court. And they, they just had this thing, if you were going down there, you told someone and you made sure they had access to money so they could get you out. And I remember Steve Romines, I think had been locked up down there for trying to correct the judge, the same judge on something. And I think, uh, what a

Christinefabulous litigator

Hughmaybe pat Ren told me a similar story, so I remember when I was going down there like that just shocked me. And he was like, oh, no, that's a special case. They're not, you know, you're not gonna encounter that in other places. That judge is just known for that kind of stuff. Yeah, I, I've never been threaten with contempt.

ChristineThere was a time I should have been held in contempt. It was right before I quit public defending. [00:24:00] Right after that SA trial there was a prosecutor, we'd made a deal and the judge was like, I'm not taking this deal. It was like she was probably a PFO and should have been more time, but we got a misdemeanor plea. And the prosecutor was like, I'll tell you, judge, why we made this deal, but I don't wanna tell Christine. And I was like, is this real life? Like in the middle of motion hour? And like the judge looked at the prosecutor like, you idiot. You, you know? And I was like, no, seriously, is this real life? And like everyone was just like ignoring me, kind of, you know? And then I was like, is this real life? Like, I was just at my point and the judge took the police, so it worked for my client.

HughBut I mean, still, what, what can a judge, I mean, what, what can you say in that point where it is just obvious what just happened?

ChristineWell, also it could be, I mean. It could mean a plethora of things for my client as far as like, what does that mean from the community. Seeing that on the record as far as like, you know, this prosecutor was an idiot but like insinuating that potentially that person was a confidential informant, which certainly was not the case. I represented them, but just the way that, first off, [00:25:00] it's ex parte. Obviously you can't do it. Like that's basic, basic, basic, but just the notion of what you explain

Hughex parte.

ChristineEx parte is the judge cannot talk to anybody on the case without everybody present. And by that I mean parties. Parties and,

Hughand or attorneys. Yeah. So

Christinelike everybody present in the case. So like if you're getting a divorce and there's mom and dad are getting a divorce, the judge has can't talk to mom's attorney without dad's attorney if they're pro se can't talk to mom without dad. Very, very, very minimal exceptions as far as like scheduling details. Sure. Or reaching out, Hey, I need an address so I can send you this order. Oh yeah. That's not, procedural stuff is not considered ex parte. You're not

Hughdiscussing the case. But it has to be the

Christinemerits of the case, facts of the case. And this is this is a rule that's so basic that, you know, Magneto and my 14-year-old puppies watched court enough during Zoom court that he understands what ex parte means. You know, anyone with a law license that doesn't understand it should be barred from the practice of law. But yet I'd say I think it's happening more than we [00:26:00] think.

HughOh, it happens. I know that it's happening. Mm-hmm. I mean, I've had. I mean, I've, I've seen it on video and I, I've had other judges when I brought the behavior of some judges to other judges, you know, the reaction is, is always frustration. Mm-hmm. Being very upset that it's happening, but it's never shock. And it's sort of, you know, it's, it's always clear to me like, oh yeah, this isn't, they know that this isn't an ongoing issue. Ugh. I just, I just remembered, I, I have at one time been so sure I was going to be held in contempt because I was not going to back off. I was not gonna let a hearing happen. And it was a case where, and this has happened a whole bunch to me in the last two, three years of my career, where I would be intervening in a case clear grounds for intervention necessary party for intervention and. Judge, you know, a judge will say, well, that was filed after we had already scheduled this hearing, so we're gonna have the f final hearing on the merits before, and then I'll consider [00:27:00] your motion to intervene. It's like, you

Christinecan't, that's not how it works. And

Hughit's, the rules are very clear. But it was one of those things, and I wasn't gonna let it happen because it was gonna let them decide where a child left that lived without my client, who had raised a child for two and a half years exclusively. And which ultimately I ended up losing. The kid was ripped away from my client, but I went to court, I think I had 2,500 bucks in cash. I expected that if I was held in contempt, then I could say, okay, what's the purge? And they would tell me, and I would just gladly take the stack out, hand it to 'em and say, best money I've ever spent, sit back down and continue being you know, like arguing, you know, the correct point Yeah. Professionally, but that. I was gonna be held in contempt and I had more cash so I could be held in contempt again and just immediately go back. But I was so sure that I just had a fat stack of cash in my jacket. And unfortunately with the way it happened, as I showed up and they said, well, you because your intervention hasn't been granted, you don't represent a [00:28:00] party in here and this hearing's gonna go forward without you. It's public. You know, you've, you've already been involved in this. You can sit in the back, but you're not allowed to speak or ask any questions. And my client and I just had to sit there and watch them have a whole trial where the other side put on testimony. And no, the GAL didn't cross. Nobody asked any questions. It was just this perfunctory. And you went on appeal. Oh yeah. One on appeal, but well on that one, we are still in the middle. We recently won an appeal on an issue of the intervention. So it is now back down to that judge again, but the whole thing isn't won yet. We're getting to go. Back many years later and try the same thing. But at that point, my client still hasn't, now, hasn't seen the child in many years. I mean, I don't know that the child really has a lot of memories over. I mean, it's, I mean, it's really devastating. Really, really devastating. But I, I was just like, you know what I, I told my wife what was going on. Mm-hmm. So she was ready. We, she had talked to one of my, either one of my partners, one of my colleagues to be ready if they needed to help get me out. And it was just like one of those things, it's [00:29:00] like, you're not talking me out of it. I'm not going to let this happen. If there's any way that I can stop it. By the rules professionally. Yeah. If it means I get held in contempt, so be it. I'm gonna carry some cash so I can try to get out.

ChristineI had a family member when we went down to court, was like, they're gonna put you in jail one of these days. And I don't think they will. That would be insane for me walking through a courthouse. But they were like, I got bail money, you know, and obviously I would never do anything in inappropriate in a courtroom. I would never try to cause a scene. I, I've

Hughseen it happen because judges arguing points on evidence and the attorney's correct and the judge is wrong, and they've, they've just, the judges ruled and the attorneys, you know, once the rulings there, you don't argue anymore. But when it's so blatant, sometimes you're just being an advocate and you continue to argue. So they're continuing to argue correctly and they get locked up for it.

ChristineThe best I've ever seen. This is on video and this is a great way to sort of end is I saw, I watched a video recording, it was just audio at the time, but the attorney said, the, the judge kept saying, [00:30:00] no, no, no, I've ruled. I've ruled. And the attorney said, with all due respect, your Honor, at this point I'm speaking to the court of appeals. Oh yeah. And then da da da. And I was like, that is a great way to say it. 'cause you preservation is such that it has to be a part of the record. And yeah, we've got to figure out a way, and I know we've talked about all the different kind of segments, but, um, I've got so many dms, but we've got to find a way to just kind of give our legal observation and to sort of assist some people, not with legal advice obviously, but just, hey, this is the steps that will, guarantee an outcome that may be helpful to you. You know?

HughYeah. I mean, it's, it's not, not even guaranteeing any kind of an outcome, but this, it doesn't foreclose. Yes. Future avenues for you to actually get justice or to get your case ruled on correctly. And, and, and, and what, what she's referring to is there are certain types of issues that cannot be appealed if you don't preserve your objection on the record during the proceeding. Mm-hmm. And there are great many things in the law that people that don't [00:31:00] have attorneys don't understand. Yeah. But I find that many attorneys don't understand that. And the way that the judges rule and the way that they will sometimes rule in a way that's like, okay, I'm ruling you're gonna be quiet now they dissuade people from making the correct objection and continuing to object. So there's also you can object once the judge makes clear they're not, they don't believe that there's anything objectionable about it. And then more and more stuff comes out under that same vein and you don't object anymore 'cause you've been shot down in a way that makes you think you're gonna get in trouble if you say anything else. But then you can't appeal 'cause that's a waiver. Yout object to those things in, there's a waiver. The attorneys that learn, you get burned once and then you start doing judge, you know, can we recognize that I have a standing objection on hearsay to everything related to this document so I don't have to interrupt the testimony and Sure. Counsel, I will note the standing objection. You're not waiving that objection, but we can sort of go through this testimony. 'cause I've already ruled. I appreciate that because it, you don't have to sit there and argue the [00:32:00] objection and get matter and matter and matter. And I don't have a judge that's so frustrated with me that by the time I'm presenting my client's case, yeah, they're already done with me. And it's, I think, better for my client. But you just wouldn't know to do that. And most attorneys early in their career wouldn't dare when asked out of a judge who already seems frustrated with him. Mm-hmm. And they will just. I mean, the ruling could be completely wrong on every single way, and you could preclude yourself from being able to appeal it or do anything about it later.

ChristineAbsolutely. And remember, judge e, judge y.com. Please go tell us your stories, judge y.com. We've gotten so many responses. It's not, we haven't gotten back to people yet. Right now, where you're just in the collecting phase. We are working on building the website, building the app, but we wanna hear your stories. We appreciate it so much. You can turn that confidentiality button on. Also, if you're an attorney, you can say that you're attorney judge y.com.

HughYep. We will protect everyone's identity. We are not in the business of no snitching, and we don't need it. We honestly don't need we don't need the [00:33:00] identity sign on under a fake name. We, we, we ask that there's a way that we can communicate with you, but we do not have any desire to out any sources of information, and we certainly don't have any plans to post anything that we have not verified and looked into. Judge is going to, yeah. Investigate these things. The stories that people tell us are just leading us in the direction to look to see what's there. Yep. And judgy

Christinestarting in Louisville, but we wanna know where judgy is needed most elsewhere.

HughYep. Absolutely.

ChristineThank y'all. Have a great day. Next time we discuss who writes the orders, judges or staff attorneys. Also, we make a new bet this time involving martinis.

Speaker 3Yeah. Yeah. We need some. Justice. Justin found justice.