The Bet Conclusion

Hugh[00:00:00] and I knew it was bad, but. Give me a break. There were, there were floors of the courthouses, plural, that were empty, just empty. And it was like, not even like well lit, like it's just like middle of the day, like zombieland bodies around.

ChristineAll right. So

Hughcelebratory beer.

ChristineYes. Cheers.

HughI'm having one too.

ChristineYeah, you shouldn't be allowed to,

Hughshouldn't be allowed to.

ChristineSo we had a bet, um, we picked a random day Tuesday at one 30, and we had a bet there were 39 judges of how many would be there. And I said, I bet there's not 12 in the courthouse. Right.

HughAnd you were right. There weren't even 12. Um, I forget how many, I said, honestly, I'll have to go back and look. Um, I usually think of myself as a cynic. Yeah.

HughBut I, and I knew it was bad, but. Give me a break. There were, [00:01:00] there were floors of the courthouses, plural, that were empty, just empty. And it was like, not even like well lit, like it's just like middle of the day, like zombieland bodies around.

ChristineIt's, it's zombieland. It is the apocalypse. It is, it is COD level. I mean the, it really is.

HughIt was like when you had to go over there for something in COVID. Yeah, it was very much like that. Um, now. I think right off the bat we have to acknowledge this is July 4th week. Mm-hmm.

HughWe know that there will be some vacations. It is a week that is a little bit more likely to be a vacation week, just because you were automatically gonna get one of those days. But we also looked at, um, a lot of the judge's dockets to see if they had been canceled or if they were taking off. Who was on vacation and yeah,

Christinethere were no family court judges that were on vacation. Now I will say Division 10, Derwin Webb said no docket for today. Okay, so we had three of 10 family court judges and we are being very lenient.[00:02:00] With one judge, because that judge, we didn't actually see, but we did see an attorney walk out and say that they had a hearing. So I think it's reasonable to deduct that they were working Now, if they were wrapping up for one at one 30 for the day, I guess that's the life, um, that he was elected to.

HughI don't think there was much, couldn't have been much of a hearing, a long hearing, uh, probably something more perfunctory or a CMC type thing to, to be finished by the time we ran into that attorney. But

Christinealso that attorney seems like in a. Jovial mood.

HughIt didn't seem like, uh, normally you come out of a heated hearing, it seemed. Uh,

Christineyeah.

HughYeah. So it didn't seem like it was major business going on in there, but, uh,

Christineyou never, you hadn't been to district court in a minute, right?

HughIt had been, it had been months since I walked through there. Maybe a year almost since I walked through there. It's been. Probably two or three years since I, I've practiced a case there.

ChristineSo the first thing you said when we walked in, you're like, why are there so many sheriff's office? I'm like, they're always there because the courtrooms aren't [00:03:00] open.

HughYeah. So inside, right where you come through the metal detectors, now there's a larger area roped off with a bunch of chairs and just a ton of sheriffs sitting around talking. And I, I don't mean to disparage them by saying they're sitting around, but they're sitting in the chairs. They're having conversations. And it was almost a little intimidating when you walk through the metal detector. There's that much law enforcement like right there. And it didn't occur to me for one second that those were the sheriffs, uh, the deputies that were in the courtrooms and they're just, when they're not having court. They, there's nothing for them to do at moment. Yeah. I'm a huge moment, huge speech of the

ChristineSheriff's office moment. They work really, really hard. Um, and I certainly like don't think they have, they're as frustrated in my opinion, with the fact that there's no court. They know they couldn't work like that, but,

Hughbut yeah, it didn't occur to me. I walked in, I was like, that's. Kind of odd. That seems like pretty heavy on the enforcement side, right? Inside, like the metal detectors. And I didn't realize, oh, these are just the people whose courtrooms are closed and they don't, they don't have a courtroom to be in right now. I, yeah, [00:04:00] that was, that was amazing. And it also, what was it, the second, the, no, the whole first floor. Whole first floor. There's nothing was going on floor for the Hall

Christineof Justice. And that's wicked old, like the Hall of Justice needs a renovation. Not that it, it looked like

Hughthey didn't have like two lights on in the place. Seriously, it was dark. I would've if, if I didn't know any better and hadn't seen the place before, I would've walked in and thought, oh, did I come on a day when they're not open?

ChristineYeah.

HughAnd I guess I'd be partially right.

ChristineThe first floor was completely not a courtroom open. I don't think we had any sort of, um, court staff. We may have run into one person from the prosecutor's office and aside. Room. I can't remember if that was on the first or second floor. Second floor. So total we had six. What did we have? Two on the second floor and four on the or? No, three on the second and three on the third, which is six outta 16. I'm not very good at math. What's that? Percentage? A little more than a third. Right? It's,

HughI mean, it's uh, it was just shocking on me. It was really. Yeah, I [00:05:00] mean I know when I worked over in district court mostly I would try to get everything on the nine o'clock docket. I didn't do a whole lot on the one, and I knew a lot of attorneys. Most the attorneys were there on the nine o'clock docket. I didn't see that many ever on the one o'clock docket. And a lot of that was, uh, generally it was easier to get in and get out and get your stuff done at nine o'clock 'cause attorneys were over there and they would get the attorneys in and out quickly. Yeah. And it seemed like a lot more pro se over in district court on the afternoon docket. So I just assumed that it was sort of a madhouse, sort of like the cattle call largely pro se dockets over in family court.

ChristineWell, that's the other thing too. There really weren't even any people in the courthouse. No. Like that.

HughIt was just nothing was going on. Right. Like it was we, we could just. Walk around. Walk around unnoticed. Like we had a couple people that, oh, can we help you? It was just odd that we were even there. Yeah. People were wondering why people are, you know, why are you even here today?

ChristineI don't even know if I ran into an attorney that I [00:06:00] recognize on that side. No. Of the courthouse. I don't, didn't think we did.

HughI didn't see an attorney over on the court.

ChristineI saw one. Oh, well,

Hughwe, we did. Now the courtrooms that were open, I looked in. I did recognize people. Yeah. There were people that were sitting inside the courtroom, but. Generally walking through. I mean,

Christinebut this is how district court is run. That's my understanding is that, uh, there's gonna be six in the afternoon, six in the morning, so still you only have 12 courts with 16 judges. Like obviously there's gonna be juvenile court, which is gonna be confidential, and I understand that. Um, and it's my understanding that we do have a. Juvenile court judge that does work, um, and is doing a hell of a job. From my understanding. I've never seen it in real time because of the confidentiality aspect. Sure. But it's just a population of that many people. The backlog that they have in Jefferson County, you could make a traffic ticket last four years. You know, there is zero excuse for the courtroom not to be hustling and bustling [00:07:00] between the hours of at least 10 and three. On a weekday.

HughYeah. I mean it was, it was shocking to me, but I don't know those dockets as well. I know that I don't remember, you know, in my time working on probate and things like that, I don't remember the dockets being anything that I needed to get done, being delayed for months and months and months, the way that things are regularly over in Circuit Court, and especially over in family court. Yeah. So I don't know. To me, it was just sort of shocking to be over there and it looked like nothing was going on and the place was pretty much closed. I don't know how that ties in, how backed up the dockets and everything are that I, I just, I didn't touch that very much in the last couple years of, of my litigation. The family courts I know are backed up. Yeah. I know how long it takes to get rulings out of so many of the divisions. I know that. There are school choice issues that are, you know, people are waiting on pins and needles to figure out Sure. Where they need to enroll their, their child before deadlines. We [00:08:00] have all kinds of things that needed to be decided yesterday that are going to be sitting for more months. So that's the part, you know, because it was, it was, uh, part of my regular daily practice that really shocked me the most. It was that the family court, there were three. Three seemed. Completely dead, other than, I mean, we had one floor that we had just nobody was on it. Mm-hmm. Now, there was a court going, there was court going on in one of the divisions. Yeah. And, uh, I think there was a hearing going on, but otherwise you wouldn't even know that that was open. It was just a, a ghost town on that floor. And for the most part, the circuit court building was like that. We saw one attorney with their client sitting out. Mm-hmm. We saw on one floor. Uh, two, it would look like pro se litigants or witnesses waiting to be called into a hearing. Oh, that was, um,

Christinehe was an attorney. He's a great guy. I'm not gonna say his name on this podcast. It was talking to those two females for circuit court.

HughOh, no, no, no. That's, I I had forgotten that there were [00:09:00] two people that were just sitting in the chairs. Right. Um, and then there was outside one of the circuit court courtrooms, there was a whole pool of juries waiting to get called in, I mean, of, of jurors, uh, waiting to get called in, um, presumably for a jury trial that was going on. Other than that, there was nothing going on on that floor. And it's, it was, I think by the time we were over there, what, 1 45? Yeah. On Tuesday. I, I just, yeah, I, I'm cynical, but I really expected, I expected something different. I, I did not know that there were that few people at work.

ChristineYeah. And there were, at that moment, two or three circuit court judges. On the bench, which is, well, I guess one, there is a, was a jury trial going on, but still that is an astronomical amount of money that taxpayers are paying. You know, I really think if you go to the counties, you're gonna see that the courtrooms are gonna be open. And I don't think people realize too, that haven't been to Jefferson County. That when the courtroom, their courtrooms are literally locked. Like if you think you're supposed to be there that [00:10:00] day and or you have something, you got subpoenaed for the wrong day, or you have a question, um, you can't even talk to a staff member like the door is locked. Like you don't get access to division seven, you don't get access to Division 10, whatever the division may be. Um, but neither of those people were there today.

HughYeah. And I, and I fully recognize that some of the judges could have been there, they could have had something that settled the last minute and they're sitting in the back and they decide. Well, I'm gonna take make use of this time. I'm gonna write orders. I get that. But knowing every motion hour that I would go to and ask for a hearing, how many months down the road to get that hearing, sometimes. Um, I mean, I would imagine that family court practitioners here in Jefferson County are almost to the point where they're scheduling things next year. Yeah. And some

Hughof the divisions will probably be scheduling in 2026 for things that I imagine their clients and the client's kids feel are urgent. Yep. But they're not gonna be able to get in front of the judges until next year. So I understand that you can't, you're not gonna be in court all the time. [00:11:00] But this is in most of the divisions, regular circuit docket time where you could be having hearings and moving through and getting some of those cases done and

Christinehearing what the litigants or what the constituents of Louisville need. And also, so I think Tuesday is also important just in this whole narrative. I never knew any judge to pick Tuesday as a writing day when I was in private practice. I never wanted to write on a Tuesday because motion hours are so intense. Really, I would be much more in litigation mode Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. Sure. You know, and then I, Thursday to me was a big writing day, because Friday you really can. I like to get stuff resolved on a Friday. Everybody's in a good mood. You can get call opposing counsel, you know, talk to your client. Mediations are great on um, Fridays, but a Tuesday between one 30 and two, I think it's shocking. And also let's like just take a step back if they are in the back writing. There is zero reason that their [00:12:00] courtroom should be locked to the general public. Like, because there are two safeguards for somebody being able to get back into chambers, it would be an impossible thing to happen. But the courtrooms taxpayer find a courtroom should be open during working hours for people to go sit in observe.

HughWell, I'm just thinking, uh, you know, the number of times, uh, in my litigation practice where I needed a judge for something. Yeah. And. I mean, it used to be, it used to be a lot easier to find. Um, it used to be able to get, you know, go buzz in and get to the back in chambers after COVID, understandably, that the protocol changed for it, but then became, um, there's just a lot of gatekeeping now. And then with the courtrooms locked. They're closed off to the public.

ChristineYeah. I don't even know what you would do if you had an emergency. I can't think of what floor we were on where there wasn't a single judge. But so for, for reference, um, when you needed somebody in the back, like you go to the corner and you'll hit Buzz to get to four [00:13:00] different judges. But I wonder if we would've done that, if there would've even been anyone that answered

Hughfifth floor on, on the, uh, at seventh of Jefferson at the, um, judicial center. So

Christinethat would be, and the first seven

HughOh, it was, uh. Well, the ninth and the seventh floor, no, sorry, the fifth and the ninth, we didn't find anybody. And then the first floor over at the Hall of Justice,

Christinenobody,

Hughnot a single person. So it also, you know, if as a practitioner there are regular times where I would have to get, have to get permission, um, to look at a family court file. Oh yeah. And a lot of them are confidential. They're a juvenile docket and. You need to get someone to sign to let you into that file. And those kind of orders are pretty perfunctory. You just have to find a judge to sign them, but it. Um, the latter, the, the last couple years I've found it very hard to find someone, and you often run the risk if you find a judge that's not the presiding [00:14:00] judge on the case and you get them to sign it, then all of a sudden you're at odds with the judge that's presiding over the case when they see that other judges are signing orders that let you into their case.

ChristineOkay, so let's back up with that. That's like a civil war right there. Mm-hmm. So if I've got a case in front of two, can't find two, or I go to three to get them to sign an order, I mean, that is something that the judges. Hate. Mm-hmm. Um, and frankly, it's in my experience, they sort of quit doing it. I mean, they would just be like, no, you've gotta find this other person. Or get them on the phone. But there are real life consequences of not being able to get access to a judge. Also like to some degree, to me, it's just silly to even have this conversation in the notion we have 39 judges that are paid between a buck 30 and $160,000 a year, and there was less than a third. If my math is right, and I'm a lawyer, so I don't trust it, but less than a third of the judges you could get access to. As a constituent to either observe, go to court, have an open co courtroom. Nuts.

HughYeah,

Christinenuts.

HughIt was, it [00:15:00] was, it was shocking to me. I'm, I, I hate to lose that, uh, but I will admit that I was, I was wrong. You, you nailed it almost to the number,

Christineand we talk a lot about how you're three months out of practicing full-time. Mm-hmm. I'm almost two, two and a half years I think. And so I think the further away I get from the practice of it, the day ins, the day outs, I sort of realize how messed up the whole system is. Um, but I did get this great beer, but I forgot how spicy these are. I mean, it's wicked good, but like also my mic is different than your mic. Like we gotta figure this out so I can drink and talk at the same time. Well. Goals. It sounds like a skill issue.

ChristineYeah, I know. Um, so let's talk about, what did we talk about last time that was so fa Oh, of course we're gonna pick a different time to go down to the courthouse. We won't give them an update, but it will be, I think the parameters need to be, be before four o'clock. I think we need to give him grace on that. We'll never do anything before nine and we'll [00:16:00] never do anything before. Yeah, after four. After four,

Hughyeah. True. Also, we need a better, we need a way to figure out who's actually present. But there's not a, the way that the gatekeeping is set up, it's, it's hard to, it's hard to tell whether a judge is there because they have good staff. The staff, the staff does a good job of guarding them and protecting their time. And I get that. I, I would want the exact same thing. Well, let's think about it though, the

Christineopposite way though. It's their, they work for us. They're on our dime. Yeah. I'm paying their salary. You're paying their salary. A kid that's slipping burgers at McDonald's over the summer is paying their salary.

HughI get it. But they, they know, I mean, the, the staff knows whose team they're on and all, and if, if, if their judges, uh, you know, their judge has a pile of, of files on the desk and they need to get through it, and they're working through it, and they do a little gatekeeping to protect the judge's time so they can write orders. I get that too. It just, I, what I'm saying is. It can make it hard for us to know whether, whether people are actually at the courthouse [00:17:00] or not, regardless of whether the courtrooms are open or not.

ChristineI tell you what, we should send them a sign. We should have 'em be. They could put it on the front flip if you're in the office, flip if you're out of the office under Scouts honor, I'm happy to donate that to all of them and I'll send 'em an email saying That's true. Y'all, we wanna know when you're at the courthouse. Um, I think one of the biggest things that would be beneficial would be for them to do time sheets. I wanna know how much you're working. I wanna know when you're getting in the building, when you're leaving, because Lord knows, we know there. There is this whole rumor out there that, or Misbelief, and this is how it used to be, and this is how it was, is in other counties, but that they're doing a whole lot at work after hours. I mean, in Louisville they have an on-call system where staff attorneys are doing stuff, um, and Oh yeah. You know that they are not sitting at home getting their dinner interrupted for a phone call like they do in the counties, or like they did back in the day. At least in my experience.

HughYeah. I, I, I don't know. I just. Yeah, we could even make, we can make nice fancy signs that look nice outside the courtroom. Yeah. [00:18:00] Yeah. It would just, it would just be interesting to know. I, I'm fascinated by this now. You raised it the last time. Uh, we were on camera and I thought it would be an interesting exercise, but I, I really was shocked today to that. It felt like we were, I mean, it felt like summer vacation. Mm-hmm. I mean, it felt like when, you know, I bet it would be a similar experience if I went to one of my kids' schools right now, I'd see two or three people there, here and there. But it would be obvious that it was closed and nothing was, no business was being done there. That's how it felt to the courthouse today. So

ChristineI think I told you too, when we were walking, I was like, it's wrong because I was right. But I feel bad. Like I almost wanted to just go. There have been so many times in this last two years where I'm just like, do something that will allow me to stop feeling a moral obligation to look into this. Just do your job and so I can go back to being an attorney and making a great living and not feeling like, you know, a moral obligation to say this is what they are doing to people. [00:19:00]

HughWell that's, boy, that's a, there are a lot of topics just in that statement. No doubt.

ChristineWow. Half, I mean, three sips of a beer in it. It's been a unique journey and I think it'll be interesting to see where you land on it, like throughout the space, because there was a time when I wanted nothing to do with it. When I left family law, I ran in the exact opposite direction of it. Didn't read cases, didn't talk about it, didn't want to give any sort of advice, um, and then felt compelled to come back in after hearing some stuff. And obviously after the selfie recording and then. Once I filed the JCC complaint, I went back in that world. I'm done talking about this, the system is gonna fix itself. And then that didn't happen. And then you hear more stories. But I also feel like from my public defender days, or just people in the community, you see that it's happening not just at family court, it's district and circuit.

HughYeah. And well, I mean, one thing we've learned, um, since launching, um, yeah, we, the, the stuff [00:20:00] that's coming in from the entire country, I mean, it's, it sounds like the exact same thing everywhere. The, the. Uh, and, and I didn't, I guess I didn't realize it so much because in the, basically for three months after I stopped practicing, I stopped reading opinions unless they were appeals that I had pending or, you know, things where, I mean, I, I definitely cared about the cases I was involved with, with clients that I cared about, but I stopped paying attention to other people's cases and. I took a break, sort of a mental break from it. Then stepping back in and hearing all that people report, like, like tons of people every single day, reaching out to us with stories about what happened and, and this happened and that happened from attorneys, from, from litigants, from people that are, um, you know, might be a casa worker or some, something similar in another state that they just see happening in the courtroom where they regularly work. It, it brings me back to a couple of cases that led me [00:21:00] to practice less in court and to more, I mean, I, I knew that in my practice I needed to delegate more run teams. We were expanding out into other states and, um, needed to be a business person and help grow. But I also didn't realize that there were a couple court experiences where I saw. Families and kids being torn apart by, uh, improper procedure and, and judges who were just in a bad mood or didn't like what somebody filed and would threaten to take a child away that moment with, with no warning that they would have to switch homes just because they were angry. That I was avoiding. I mean, I, I was just pulling back from my own personal involvement in the cases in my own court work because, um. It was so frustrating. It was intensely stressful, but also it, it felt like more and more my experiences over in the family court [00:22:00] made me look down upon the profession a little bit. Oh yeah. Like it was something that I, I really, as an attorney, you, you realize the role you play in people's lives, the role you play in, in, in the law, in. I mean, you're part of this big system and there's this whole grand idea that, you know, basically, especially people in litigation have to believe in order to endure the stress and keep going and have a positive mental attitude. But it was undermined, you know, 50% of the time I was over there actually in court. That if I work hard, if I prepare, if I learn the rules better than anybody else, then I'll succeed. Mm-hmm. Where none of that matters. And it was just sort of a roll of the dice and, and what mood, you know, certain people were in. Or, you know, what a court appointed person says, you know, even though they've, they've never talked to anyone in the case, what they decide to make up that day, it really made a huge difference in, in my willingness to continue just day-to-day [00:23:00] litigation. And I was more than happy to hand off most everything outside of some, you know, larger, ongoing cases to, to other people. I, I didn't reflect on that well enough until. Some of the stuff, I started revisiting those cases. Mm-hmm. When we started talking, we started reading through, um, things that people submitted to us and it, it started just to ring true that oh yeah, this is set pattern. Big, big difference in my own personal journey to, to sort of pull back and, and not be litigating any. More.

ChristineWell, and we, a lot of the comments that I've gotten from people is they really believe that the attorneys are in on the scheme. Um, and I think it's hard to explain, and by no means are we the victims, um, in the same regard that litigants are, that it's involving their children, their marriage, their life's, their finances.

HughThat's a really, really good point.

ChristineYeah. I mean. That being said,

Hughbecause we're getting paid. Yeah, yeah. No matter how the outcome is. Yes. You know, what the, what the outcome is and how it happens.

ChristineSo, or we're volunteering our time and not getting paid and, you know, lose, but [00:24:00] it, it's, it, it's a mess. And there's so many attorneys that like I talk to that are just. Broken, but they have got the mindset that, okay, listen, this is what we're gonna do. We're just gonna get everything resolved outside of court. Mm-hmm. So they go that through that pattern for six to eight months. Oh yeah. And then there's something that has to go to court and they're like, you won't believe the ruling I just got. You can tell that the judge didn't look at anything. Oh yeah. And so then it's the mental health spiral of the attorney realizing this isn't working. And you have attorneys. When I left I was 37. Um, but you have attorneys that are 55, 60, they're so close to retirement. Um, and it's really difficult to be in a system and see it as just an objective outsider, you know what I mean? Yeah. Which is why when I went into the school system, that's what changed me talking about this in the way I did. 'cause I was in the school system like, y'all, this is nuts. That ain't no way. This is how it's supposed to go if we're talking about educating kids. And everyone was like, well, this is how we've always done it. And I was like. This is how my clients feel in family [00:25:00] work. I was about

Hughto say, how many times have you heard when you've said, well that doesn't make any sense. Why would we do it that way? That's just the way that it works here. Yeah. Like when you're talking about, especially some of the dependency, neglect and abuse dockets, or if you have a guardian ad litem who is just an attorney representing a child. Mm-hmm. Starts dictating things like a judge, making recommendations and telling you the way it has to be, and you're thinking you don't. Get, how do you get to do that? Who are you? Well, that's just the way that it, that it works. And the judge is gonna say to do what I mm-hmm. I tell you to do. And you're thinking, but you're not a judge. You don't have any authority in the case. Yeah.

HughAnd then you start realizing that the system is just turned into this machine. And I, I start looking at it from the point of view. I a litigant that's coming into that and realizing. You're just at everyone's mercy and it's hard not to see the attorneys as part of that. And some of them might be if you just sort of accept that there are ways to navigate it. You can say to a client, and I'm sure that you, you experienced this too, and, and for years I did that. Number one, we're gonna stay out of court [00:26:00] if we go to court. Yeah, for sure. You're rolling the dice, you don't know what's gonna happen, X, y, and z. Uh, especially if you, if you're at a stage in the case where you know who your judge is going to be, you could. Tell stories from past cases that were similar, but to, to explain why you, you don't want to go to court, but also set them up for, okay, this person was appointed to represent your children. Here's how they're gonna operate. They're going to tell you what to do. Well, why do I have to listen to them? And I have to the judge. Yes, I understand that, but that's the way that it works. And the judge is gonna do whatever this person says, and it's just you. You can warn clients about it. And you can navigate it and you can make the best decisions and give the best representation, but it's hard not to when you're saying There's nothing I can do about it. Yeah.

HughThat's the way that it is. Here's why you need to follow the direction, even if they're wrong, because the judge will sign off on it, and if you don't, then you have no chance in front of the judge. After a while, you're just like. You know, navigating, this isn't really what I want to do. I want to change.[00:27:00] I want to see this work the way that it's supposed to work.

ChristineWell, acquiescing to authority without the ability to question it has literally led to every tragedy that's ever happened in this country, in this nation, in this world. From the history, from the beginning of the beginning of the beginning. And I do think the court system is gonna be the next one where we really. See how problematic it has become over the last 30 years in particular after the pandemic. I think there was a realization of the ability to work part-time when work remote, and I think they leaned into that, um, in a way that I can't even fully articulate.

HughYeah, and, and, and don't get me wrong, I love virtual court. I preferred it because. Especially toward the, the end of my litigation career, I did document heavy cases. I did mostly financial stuff, and if you want someone to turn to the page and actually look through stuff, it's so much easier to put it up on the [00:28:00] screen and highlight it to where everyone that's looking at the same screen will be reading it and to keep people's attention and to make sure that's in the record that gets recorded in the record. Whereas if I did that in person and then later had to write an appeal about it. Good luck finding an intact binder. Like I, I was very good at keeping them, but you'd have to keep a physical binder, you'd have to dig through it, whereas virtually it's all right there on the record and you can review every single bit of it. And frankly, I, I enjoyed, I, I had a space, um, I would take over a conference room and sort of just build a space with all the space I need for everything I'd, and I'd put the. Um, computer or whatever. I had a, either a standing desk or a, uh, laptop that would be up so I could stand and feel like I was at the courtroom. Yeah. I like to stand when I talk and I could just be very comfortable talking in front of the camera. So, so I enjoyed it. Um, and I don't mean to, to say everything should go back to in person because to a certain extent, um, especially when you have witnesses from out of town, you get a big [00:29:00] case and you have people from out of town. Having people be able to appear and the judges being very gracious and or opposing counsel especially, can we go out of order? My guy can it off from one to one 30. Can we do his testimony and take a break and do it right at that time so they can be available? I never had anybody give me any trouble about that, and it was only possible through the remote stuff, but. You are absolutely right. I started experiencing the same thing during COVID and then after to where hearings would get rescheduled and there would be no real explanation and neither litigant knew why. Yeah. Like all of this in court was just canceled or there, there's large parts of dockets that just weren't available, and they weren't district court docket days. They just. There was no, they weren't there. It was inexplicable. And then like today, how many of the courts did we go to that had a docket posted for the week that showed

Christinethey

Hughwere there, what was gonna be, yeah, there. I didn't see that on most of the courts like it used to be they, outside the court, you would see the docket for the day. You would see the docket for the week. [00:30:00] Couldn't even tell.

ChristineOh, so you used to, they would have a breakdown, like uh, 15 minutes for this? 15 minutes for that. 15 minutes for that. You know, they don't really, A weekly

Hughcalendar?

ChristineYeah, they had the weekly calendar and they all had a weekly calendar for family court that said they would be there at this time, I believe, except for division 10.

HughWell, they weren't posted at the courthouse. I mean, they maybe, maybe on the website. Yeah. You know, we were looking when I was over there. It was, it was hard without going to the website to look at that. But you're right. I mean, we reviewed all that stuff for going over there, looking to see if court was canceled today, if. If there was no docket today, so we could understand why someone wouldn't be there.

ChristineAnd just for clarification too, if they were doing a quote unquote re remote remote hearing, um, the doors would've been unlocked because we did walk into a circuit hearing that it had remote litigants on there. Yeah, no, that's right. If the court's open, it's open. They're not gonna have the courtroom locked, so. No, that's right. They weren't conducting a hearing even remotely. Oh. It's

Hughone of the weirdest things you could ever, if you walk in, I've walked in before looking for a judge's signature. I saw them on the bench. Thought that they weren't on the record. I didn't see the light. 'cause they had something sitting kind of up in the [00:31:00] way and didn't realize they were in the middle of a remote hearing. And I walk in and they just, they're screened so they can see the people on the screens, but there was no one else in the courtroom and it was. Yeah, it was a functioning hearing. It just, it felt so strange 'cause you had a judge and then a bunch of people on TV screens. But it works

Christinewell. There are things that I can just, in my opinion,

Hughit works.

ChristineThere are things that can be remote, but there are things that cannot, there are things that you cannot tell, um, by the demeanor of a person. I'm not talking necessarily about like financial stuff, where a lot of that in circuit court could be done too by submission. Maybe not family court, but there are certain things or deposition has often happened that are submitted to the court, um, and then adopted. I, I struggle with the notion of not being, giving people kids, giving domestic violence orders, giving any sort of those things on a remote screen. I mean, I just, and just to back up a little bit, during COVID I, they could have made a system that was better. They could have made some sort of order that's like, Hey, we're gonna do this. We have 10 judges that all have different rules [00:32:00] or different preferences for things, but clearly this remote hearing aspect has worked in, into them getting a part-time gig. Well,

Hughyeah, I don't know. I, I have a different view on it. I, I, um, if you're representing victims of domestic violence, I can't think of, I can't, I can't tell you how many times I've sat in and. Being in the courtroom with the accuser, I mean with the, with the accused, with the respondent. Especially in a case where someone has just suffered a long relationship of abuse, not able to testify properly, just that's evidence paralyzed if

Christineperfect. You're, you're giving my point. You've proven my point.

HughI, I agree. But at the same time, um. Well, you're right. I, I've, you know, my, my opinion is colored as from my experience as a litigator. Yeah.

HughSo I, I get it, but I, I, um, I could go through that testimony much easier sitting

Christineno doubt. Easier in a,

Hughyeah. Easier. But, but also you mentioned de depositions. [00:33:00] I mean, how easy it was for me to just pop up a video of someone at a deposition to contradict their statement. Whereas if you're sitting in the courtroom. To get it to play you. I mean, that's like 10 minutes lost to get the, the I, the everything working. You've lost your moment to contradict them, and by the time you get it to play in the courtroom, because the AV stuff is so bad, no one remembers what the question was anymore. Whereas I can have it queued up just waiting for them to answer the question and say something in the, in the affirmative or in the negative, and just be like, oh, well that's not what you said three days ago, and I could play it very quickly on the video. There were just. There's some things that lended itself very well to, but are you

Christineready for me to get weird?

HughSo weirder,

Christineif that's the case. No, seriously. Think about this though. We've got our courthouse probably a hundred million dollars, I'd say at least. I mean, it's a gorgeous, the judicial center. Yeah. Gorgeous. Nice building.

ChristineBut so why don't we just, um, and I think the TikTok judge would love this. Well, Byron Olay. But why don't we just get [00:34:00] an industrial complex in Shepherdsville, Kentucky, um, and let them go sit in cubicles and just hear cases all day. And then we can take that a hundred million property. We can make that into very legitimate things that will help the community.

HughYou mean it could sit empty like the other, all the other buildings downtown?

ChristineNo. We'll make it into something. We'll make it into housing. Hell, we'll make it a hotel with a roof deck bar. Well, I mean, imagine down there, but it is a waste of hundreds of millions. At least tens of millions of dollars. But they don't need to be sitting in these fancy courthouses that is, yeah. What do you call

Hughthat thing? A hundred million. It's not that beautiful, but it's a Oh, you'll make another bet. It's, it's a, oh, yes. Actually,

ChristineI guarantee you I've got all

Hughthe beer in the world to bet I'm good.

ChristineI guarantee you that the A OC paid more than a hundred million dollars for the judicial complex.

HughIt is a government, yep. Paying for a contract.

ChristineBut we'll bet a beer. I say over a hundred. Hey, listen, I'm, I'm, I'm wrong. I

Hughwill take that. I'm happy. I mean, I'm, I'm happy to admit that I'm wrong. I'm not happy that I was wrong today, but I think I'll win this one

Christineand I'm not happy that I was [00:35:00] right. I think there's a lot of conversations. You know, we talk about how, like, you know, I'm crazy Christine, ha ha ha. In a funny way. Um, and I think two things can be true at the same time. I'm crazy. And these judges, uh, aren't doing their job adequately. But that being said, I did almost after we left, I thought, Christian, that was a little crazy for you to say 12 or less people. Like, I was like, you should have bet more. So I'm, my feelings are hurt. I felt

Hughlike when we left the studio last time after recording, I had a pretty good shot. I had a pretty good shot, but I was way wrong. I mean it, it was because it was a Tuesday and it was an afternoon. Yeah, it wasn't long after lunch. So this is. I can unders, I mean, none of 'em were still at lunch. At I I never would have, even when my office was downtown, I was two blocks from the courthouse. If it was after three o'clock, unless it was an emergency for my client and somebody was in danger, I would never bother to go over after three. 'cause I would just would never expect to find a judge.

ChristineYeah.

HughUm, but one 30 on a Tuesday. On a

ChristineTuesday, and I [00:36:00] cannot trust the importance. I know I already said this, but y'all, Mondays and Tuesdays are the days that they should be working. I mean. Nine 30 to three o'clock, nine 30. I mean, generally genuine, you know, like Wow. Aim high. I know. But it's like those are the two days that I do feel like I have the most optimism that the elected judiciary of Louisville is actually working.

HughI mean, and I get that. I mean, there's the multiple of, of those judges had district court dockets on Tuesday. I mean, they happen on Tuesday, and if you get through them all by lunch, explain it. What do you mean?

ChristineYou're, so you're saying district court where we, oh,

Hughsorry, sorry, sorry. So, um, in the family court system here, um, it's, it can work different in different counties, but our, our judges, especially in Jefferson County. Have certain dockets that are in, uh, district court, in non-family court jurisdiction. So I, I refer to 'em as district dockets. We're talking about paternity, we're talking about domestic violence. We're talking about, uh, dependency, [00:37:00] neglect, and abuse that are heard concurrent jurisdiction. They're heard in family court in Jefferson County. If you're not chief judge, you have those three dockets every single week. So some of your days are taken up and they may last all day, they may not last all day. You may get through your docket in the morning. You may go to the back and write orders. Um, well this

Christineis one thing the legislator could clean up. So like back when I first started practicing, I was in counties that didn't have family court, but with the inception of family court. Prior to that, our constitution gave what we call concurrent jurisdiction. Mm-hmm. Of family court matters to district and circuit. Yep. And so if you filed a paternity action or h uh, like a child support action dependency, neglection abuse, that would go to the district judge in that jurisdiction. Yep. If you filed a circuit court action, which would be a divorce or a circuit, uh, custody action that would go. To the circuit judge, which allowed for form shopping. But our family court judges, anywhere there is a family court, they still hold these different dockets and I do think our legislator could [00:38:00] clean that up and that would go a long way into getting some efficiency.

HughOh, sure. You mean clear it up and keep it with district court for some of the docket? I

Christinewould just say if there's a family court, then they don't need to be, they don't need to be determined or allocated as a district court docket. Like there's no reasoning for that. The only person that benefits, quite frankly is, uh, the county attorney.

HughYeah, no, I, I get that. Uh. I mean, I've always had mixed feelings about it because all of those things have the potential to lead to circuit court family actions. So you have the idea that you have one family, one judge. So if it starts off as just domestic violence or a paternity action, child support action, it could be that it leads to a bigger family court custody action. Mm-hmm. Or dependency, neglect and abuse can become a custody action later, or a domestic violence hearing could later play a role. In a divorce that may not happen for several years after the, after the domestic domestic violence, [00:39:00] um, you know, district court docket and having the same judge over, that makes a lot of sense. One judge that understands everything that's going on and sees all of these things, in

Christinetheory, not in practice, in my opinion.

HughWell, yes, in theory it makes a lot of sense. Um, and I've practiced before judges who I take that very seriously and remember, you know, they. The good old age. Yeah. Especially when small. Well, no, I'm just talking about in, in smaller towns where they know everybody, they will remember, you know, okay, you were here on a domestic violence doc, you know how mm-hmm. How are things going, you know, and that'll be on the divorce docket later. So it, it seems important for the, the judges to know, but I also understand that those three dockets take up a lot of time for the not family court. Court judges. Not didn't. That's, that's what was shocking to me. So in my head, I'm always thinking. Okay. Legitimately they have, judges have motion hours on Monday, they have these three. If they're not the chief judge, they have these three other dockets, and then the rest of the week that's left over is what they have to deal with. All of the circuit, family, divorce and custody actions. Mm-hmm.[00:40:00] Adoptions, those kinds of things. Um, and. To a certain extent. When I was practicing, I understood why it took so long to get a hearing before the judges, because they may have three days out of their week that are taken up on these dockets, and that's just part of their job. Mm-hmm. But they're not getting any other work done on those days. But then you go over to the court and you realize that. I'm sure that people were in court yesterday at motion hour. Mm-hmm. Who had, would have killed for day to have some time with a judge today. And they have things that greatly affect the safety or the mental health of a child or great financial potential harm. Mm-hmm. For waiting when, when, let's say, uh, the parties can't decide who's going to, um, control a certain financial account, and then you have. Certain political things happen that might cause uncertainty, that could cause a great loss or gain or the market. Yeah. In a financial asset. And then you, you're gonna have to wait six or seven months [00:41:00] and it's chaos. You don't know who's going to be maintaining that or maybe nobody gets to make a decision. It just sits. Mm-hmm. And, and continues to lose money. I've seen it many times. Those people would love to have been over there to hearing today. Yeah. With all in any one of these closed courtrooms. Yeah. And I know that there were attorneys yesterday who were probably being told end of the year, maybe early next year for a hearing on even minor matters in a case. So it makes absolutely no sense why the doors are locked and the lights are off at one 30 in the afternoon on a Tuesday.

ChristineIt is nuts. I did get a message, um, from someone that I've been talking to and you know, y'all, I've got sources. I mean, you name it, I've got sources, um, after doing this for as long as I have, but somebody said, thank you so much. I was in motion hour yesterday and the judge. Actually seemed prepared. Now I don't know what division that was. Um, but I think the point of this is I think that us going to the courthouses or they, that might make them start coming to court. 'cause we're gonna start doing this. At [00:42:00] least I'm gonna start doing this weekly. I mean it, the look on your face when we did it, you, you were shocked. I could tell I was outta breath.

HughI'm still shocked. I, um, I'm still shocked. I, it was, it was, it was just really disappointing. Mm-hmm. Just because I remember. Monday, the end of Monday was one of the worst times. 'cause you're done with motion hour and it is time to talk to your clients about generally. I mean, every now and then it would be you lost on a motion or something. You had to, you had to say what the judge ruled or whatever. You had to get bad news, but generally it was just explaining how ineffective the system was. Mm-hmm. Yes. I brought the motion today. Yep. You got a hearing in December. But what, what happens? It's all gonna be gone by December. Yep. That's the best that could, that could be done. The judges, everything's just so backed up and nothing can actually get done in the courthouse. And, you know, making excuses for the system and all that to get over there and see, uh, that probably actually isn't the case at all. Just nobody's actually working. That was, maybe they're in the

Christineback recording tiktoks, [00:43:00] who knows?

HughI don't know. It was a gut punch and I don't know what was going on in the back. I, I, and I don't. My purpose in it is just for the system to work better. I've seen how it affects people. I've seen how it negatively affect clients and their families and kids, and I want it to work better. Same so I, you know, and there were judges over there holding hearings. Mm-hmm. There were judges that were working very hard. This certainly doesn't apply to everybody, but it was just shocking how few there were in the courthouse and how the divisions were closed. Locked, yeah. Lights off. On entire floors, there was not even a light on, uh, outside, outside in the lobby. There were, but nowhere else.

ChristineAnd I think it's funny, the funny aspect of it, because I think these judges are starting to take notice and I think they're starting to be like, is this serious? But we were recording in front of the courthouse, um, just reporting on what we saw. And like the public defender's office came out and were like watching us and they're so, and then I had a guy come up to me who was like, Hey, I follow your tiktoks, so you know. There are people that are very, [00:44:00] very, very interested in this, and this is very grassroots and it really is the beginning. I mean, this is like the beginning of July, I'd say We partnered up, has it even been two weeks, three weeks maybe? I don't even know. It's been like a whirlwind.

HughYeah, it's been, it's been a short period of time,

Christinebut I'd say that since, um, we launched Judgy, which we are still looking for stories. We wanna hear your stories, but since that time. Tens of thousands of messages, whether it be emails, calls, dms, reaching out, touching, you know, those sorts of things. It's just really hard to quantify how many people have been affected. And I'm gonna be brutally honest, we don't know what to do with all of it. It's been too

Hughmuch. Yeah. We haven't been able to reach out to a, a small percentage mm-hmm. Of people so far. I was really, I knew, I mean, I knew there was, there was something going on here. Mm-hmm. And, and the number of people that are. Making content about it and talking about some of the injustices, you know, made me know that this was, we were tapping into something that, that there was a lot [00:45:00] of, um, there were a lot of stories, so there's a lot of emotion going on. I had absolutely no idea that the first day that we launched our inboxes were flooded and the phones were just ringing

Christinehundreds the first day.

HughLike, if. It, you know, if somebody wanted to take an angle like this as a law firm, they could generate so many clients. And, and I find that, um, you know, one of the things we've had to say is we, we are not giving legal advice on this. We're trying to tell stories. We're trying to shine light on something, but. It's really, really shocking. And just so everyone

Christineknows too, we've done no promotional post. I mean the billboard went up, but I have not done any sort of advertising online. Yeah, I mean really when I say grassroots and I do think we gotta amp stuff up and if you would like to volunteer in any capacity, it's Miller time Louisville DM me, or judging the judges on Instagram. That's the best way to reach me. Um. Independently if you wanna sign or you want some drop cards, but we're gonna keep going. I had a thought, but I lost it. I [00:46:00] think I've had half of a country boy, and I'm like, woo.

HughYeah. Well, you're promoted country boy. I'm, I'm drinking the Apollo IPA from a, uh, apocalypse Brewing and it's, it is quite tasty as well, so

ChristineI really did forget how good these are.

Speaker 4Yeah. Yeah. We need some. Justice. Justin found justice.